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Thread: Religious circumcision of kids a crime - German court

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    Default Religious circumcision of kids a crime - German court

    Religious circumcision of kids a crime - German court
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    Published: 26 June, 2012, 16:24

    Reuters / Stoyan Nenov
    TAGS: Children, Health, Religion, Law, Germany
    A German court has ruled that parents canít have their sons circumcised on religious grounds in a move which has angered Muslim and Jewish groups in the country.
    The court in Cologne decided that a legal guardianís authority over a child does not allow them to subject them to the procedure, which the court called minor bodily harm, reports The Financial Times Deutschland.
    Neither does religious freedom, which is protected by law in Germany, give grounds for such decisions to be taken for the children, the ruling says.
    The court was considering a case against a Muslim doctor, who performed circumcision on a four-year-old boy at his parentsí request. Two days after the procedure bleeding started, after which the boy had to be taken to hospital.
    German authorities learned about the incident and launched a criminal investigation against the doctor. The initial court trial ruled that there was no violation of the law, but the prosecutorís office took the case to the Cologne district court.
    The decision sets a precedent, which may affect medical practice across the country.
    The possible ban on circumcision provoked outrage among Jewish and Muslim organizations in Germany, where every year thousands of boys are circumcised in their early years at the request of parents. They regard the ban as a "serious interference in the right to freedom of religion." But none of the organizations so far has commented on the verdict, explaining they first need to study thoroughly the reasoning of the judges. *
    Some experts however donít rule out that the right for religiously motivated circumcision will be considered by the Federal Constitutional Court.

    Religious circumcision of kids a crime - German court — RT
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    What the...

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    Elite Member Karistiona's Avatar
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    Hmm I feel that's a bit excessive, and also one of those times when the government is interfering in people's personal choice for - what I feel is - no good reason
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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    I kind of agree with this. I do t think religious freedom should extend to being allowed to alter someone else's body permanently, for non-medical reasons. this isn't like piercing your kid's ears or something, this is something that can't be undone and what if the kid grows up and decides he would have preferred to keep his foreskin? he could get circumcised once he's older and understands the decision and it's his personal religious choice to do so.
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    Good. I wish we had that law here.
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    Elite Member DeadDwarf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    I kind of agree with this. I do t think religious freedom should extend to being allowed to alter someone else's body permanently, for non-medical reasons. this isn't like piercing your kid's ears or something, this is something that can't be undone and what if the kid grows up and decides he would have preferred to keep his foreskin? he could get circumcised once he's older and understands the decision and it's his personal religious choice to do so.
    In a perfect world this would be how it is done. We are not getting our baby circumcised, he can do that when he is grown if he feels it's that important. I think he will thank us one day for not doing it. Our extended families will probably feel the need to say something, but we don't care, for our family some traditions need to be ended and are just cruel.
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    Elite Member MmeVertigina's Avatar
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    Leaving our boys intact is slowly becoming the norm. My view is that it is their body, so it should be left as their choice.
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    Elite Member yanna's Avatar
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    If the kid is that into religion, at 18 he's free to do whatever he wants to his penis.

    My guess is that religious parents will simply take their kids to the homeland for the procedure. There are always ways around laws.
    What if Superman is psychotic and everyone can see that he's Clark Kent but they just play along not to set him off?

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    ^^ I think that you are right, or the rich ones will. The poor ones will drive over the nearest border & get it done there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarzy View Post
    Good. I wish we had that law here.
    So - is it ok to have things done to kids for non-religious reasons (ear piercing, etc) but not religious reasons? Or are you advocating all things?

    Also, would you ban things like baptisms till adulthood when they are old enough to choose for themselves?



    I know someone who was circumcised as an adult (for health reasons not religious) and he had a hell of a time.
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    Elite Member yanna's Avatar
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    I know someone who was circumcised as an adult (for health reasons not religious) and he had a hell of a time.
    Well, there's their chance to show real commitment to their god.

    As for baptism, it is in no way comparable since it doesn't involve an irreversible procedure.
    What if Superman is psychotic and everyone can see that he's Clark Kent but they just play along not to set him off?

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    I was interested to know why Sazy feels that way.

    Some Christians may not agree that baptism isnt irrivocal, however I'm sure that you mean physically not spiritually.

    I think that this decision is going to leave the german govt open to challenge in the EU courts on human rights grounds (being able to follow/express religious freedoms without interference from the state/religious persecution), I think that it will drive the practise underground and I think that it is unregulatable. I'm sure that both religious have enough peditritians that can sign the appropriate paperwork to have this done "for medical reason".
    Are the german police going to do "willy checks" of babies of families that mint be Islamic or Jewish? How will they find out their religion? Maybe they should all wear badges so that the police can tell.... Etc etc etc.

    I'm not for or against this, I just think that it needed to be handle differently if they were going to do it.
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    Gold Member lucianodel's Avatar
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    A newly born child cannot express his/her religion as they can't speak for themselves and their views.
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    Elite Member Sarzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yanna View Post
    As for baptism, it is in no way comparable since it doesn't involve an irreversible procedure.
    This. It can't be compared. Cutting off part of a baby's penis is horrible and I've never agreed with it.
    I don't agree with babies getting their ears pierced either but that's not as serious as circumcision and it's not irreversible either.

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    Elite Member Mivvi21's Avatar
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    Circumcision is genital mutilation,so I am glad they have tried to put a stop to it. The US needs to do the same thing.
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    My partner was circumcised as an adult for medical reasons and while he's said it was uncomfortable for a couple of days it wasn't horrendous and was a cakewalk compared to the pain he had before.

    By the way, don't ever say "pics or it didn't happen" to someone who has just had it done. It was an image I could have done without seeing.
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