Dutch considering banning the burqa

[Grimmlok]

How dare they ban the sparkly burqas!

The Dutch government will announce over the next few weeks whether it will make it a crime to wear traditional Islamic dress which covers the face apart from the eyes.

The Dutch parliament has already voted in favour of a proposal to ban the burqa outside the home, and some in the government have thrown their weight behind it.

There are only about 50 women in all of the Netherlands who do cover up entirely - but soon they could be breaking the law.

Dutch MP Geert Wilders is the man who first suggested the idea of a ban.

"It's a medieval symbol, a symbol against women," he says.

"We don't want women to be ashamed to show who they are. Even if you have decided yourself to do that, you should not do it in Holland, because we want you to be integrated, assimilated into Dutch society. If people cannot see who you are, or see one inch of your body or your face, I believe this is not the way to integrate into our society."

'Identifiable'

I interviewed Mr Wilders inside parliament after several security checks. Two tough bodyguards stood close by throughout. This country, once the epitome of easy-going liberalism, is edgier, less tolerant these days.

Mr Wilders' name was included on a list of "infidels, who deserved to be slaughtered", which was found pinned to the body of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh.

Van Gogh was murdered two years ago for making the film about women and Islam called "Submission". It starts with a shot of a woman's face covered by a burqa. Slowly the camera shows that, from the neck downwards, she's naked but for a thin veil.

Mr Wilders has explicitly linked his wish for a burqa ban with terrorism.

"We have problems with a growing minority of Muslims who tend to have sympathy with the Islamo-fascistic concept of radical Islam," says Mr Wilders.

"That's also a reason why everybody should be identifiable when they walk on the street or go to a pub or go into a restaurant or whatsoever."

'Freedom of choice'

Famala Aslam is a Muslim lawyer who has represented women who have stopped wearing the burqa while training as child-care assistants. She would not cover her face herself, but does wear a traditional dress and headscarf from eastern Turkey.

She showed me how that can be adapted.

Banning or isolating a certain group of the population is just asking for problems

Famala Aslam, Muslim lawyer
"Other women are stricter; and they hide the face - you can only see the eyes," she says. "And other women choose to wear the niqab, and they veil the face totally."

I asked her what she would say to people who would say: "If you want to fit into the West, live here, wear a business suit; wear jeans - don't wear what you're wearing. Don't wear a niqab."

Ms Aslam says she believes that the freedom of choice and the freedom of religion is something that people need to fight for.

In the city of Maaseik, in Belgium - which lies a few hundred yards from the Dutch border - a ban on wearing the niqab is already in place. Mayor Jan Creemers said he brought it forward because old people were afraid and children cried when women started appearing in long black robes with their faces covered.

Belgium ban

Women can now be fined 150 euros (£102) if they are found to be wearing the niqab.

"There were six ladies who wore the niqab. I think two or three weeks after the council passed this law, five have dropped it," says Mr Creemers. "One lady is still wearing it but the last step in the procedure will be that she must go to jail."

The husband of the woman who defies the ban is being held in connection with the Madrid bombings. But the police here are not too happy with the ban. They say it has made relations with the Moroccan community worse and gives young people a reason to resent society.

Ms Aslam says if the ban becomes law in the Netherlands, some women will adopt the veil as a political statement.

"A lot of women are not fully feeling like Muslims," she says. "But because of the public opinion, they are feeling like: 'I have to be a Muslim'. And banning or isolating a certain group of the population is just asking for problems."

The Dutch government will soon decide whether to ban the burqa. Perhaps it will not become illegal in this marketplace or in the street. But they are likely to ban it in public places like stations, airports and cinemas - something many Muslims will regard as provocation in a Europe increasingly uncertain of its own identity.

[LynnieD]

Interesting. Hmmmm....
Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, I understand the reason for the ban, but on the other, it does step on the freedom of religion/choice thing.

I'm Dutch, and I'd just like to stick to smoking pot and hooking.....who cares about burqas!

[Barbara]

When you go to Muslim countries you can't (as a woman, of course ) wear what you want in public. I don't see why western traditions or ways of life should be considered less important.
I don't want to see burqas in Europe, thank you very much (not that I think they're OK in any other part of the world...).

[Grimmlok]

Good point

[moomies]

When you go to Muslim countries you can't (as a woman, of course ) wear what you want in public. I don't see why western traditions or ways of life should be considered less important.
I don't want to see burqas in Europe, thank you very much (not that I think they're OK in any other part of the world...).

I have to disagree with you Barbs...sorry.

I saw a segment on one of those 20/20 shows about Muslim women and they were wearing regular Western pretty/sexy/skimpy clothes underneath their burqa. I don't know if that applies to all the Muslim women though but they do have stores selling regular Western clothes in Muslim countries. I'm sure some of our Muslim posters can tell us more about that.
I studied a bit about hijab in my anthro class and some Muslim women (who migrated to the West) do like to wear it and consider it an expression of their ethnic identity which they are very very proud of, rather than a sign of gender oppression (but of course there are others who feel they don't want to wear the veil because they'd be discriminated atgainst). I wouldn't want to take that right away from them or anyone who choses to wear their traditional attire.
I can understand how it might be different in Europe. But a lot of ppl in Canada still wear their traditional clothing. We have a large population of East Indians here in Vancouver (we also have a little Punjabi town in addition to the world's second biggest Chinatown) and a lot of women wear sarees on a daily basis, they look beautiful. Noone gives them any shit for it either, most Vancouverites accept ethinic and racial differences. I think it comes down to cultural tolerance. It might not be fair that Westerners are required to cover up when they are in Muslim countries but the West doesn't have to give Muslims an eye for an eye IMHO.

[Barbara]

Originally Posted by moomies

I saw a segment on one of those 20/20 shows about Muslim women and they were wearing regular Western pretty/sexy/skimpy clothes underneath their burqa. I don't know if that applies to all the Muslim women though but they do have stores selling regular Western clothes in Muslim countries.

I knew that one would be coming, and this is exactly the reason I was careful to write ...in public.

Islam is a conquering religion (just like pseudo-christianity at its worst) and I don't want the women living in Europe to lose the freedom they acquired over the 20th century. In French suburbs, Muslim girls from North African descent get burnt alive by their own brothers or male cousins when they "rebel against their traditions" and wear clothes considered too skimpy or even sometimes when they refuse to wear the veil. Or when they go our with a non Muslim boyfriend... talk about freedom of religion Those are not assumptions, those are very sad and frightening facts that make the headlines time and again.

[moomies]

I understand such tragedies and mistreatment happen to Muslim women and that these are facts and not merely your assumptions. But in my fantasy world, Muslim women should be allowed to wear anything (they can wear a Kimono if they wanted to, damn it!! )
that they choose without the fear of violence or discrimination, that is to me the religious freedom.
Being ethnic living in the West myself, I'm just a big fan of keeping one's cultural heritage.

[Grimmlok]

Cultural heritage vs. religious heritage? This is what I was talking about when religion and culture blur as in Israel or muslim nations a lot of the time.

[moomies]

I can only speak for myself and my religion (though I'm actually not all that religious) but Shintoism is waven into daily life of the Japanese, some may claim that they are atheist without knowing they actually practise Shintoism. I would personally say the same about other religions just from my anthropological understanding, religion and culture are intertwined.
I know some posters have said otherwise, that societal practice differ from religious teachings but I think that's more to do with the specifics and the nitty gritty details.

[Barbara]

The thing that bothers me is that muslim women wearing the burqa rarely do so because they want to and would be free not to do it. They might say it is so, but they are not counting peer pressure in, IMO.
(Not unlike "westerners" getting big fake boobs and swearing they do it only for themselves.)

A few days ago there was a Swiss woman on TV, who converted to Islam and now wears long black robes ( I don't know if there is a more specific term to use) and hides her hair and part of her face. She was telling how much more respected she felt now.
Duh! Of course, men don't look at her anymore! It's your attitude that earns you respect, not the fact that you bury your body and part of your personality under concealing clothes

I want women from every culture and religion to be able to decide for themselves what is good for them, not to follow some tradition without having a say in it
(I would rant in the same way if the subject were some evangelical churches that won't allow women to wear trousers or jewel or make up.)

I'm quite touchy on that subject, sorry if I seem to get carried away

[Grimmlok]

Yeah, I heard that from a Muslim woman once..

"because nobody can see what I look like, people judge me for who i am, and not how i look, especially men."

Oh fine. So its YOUR fault that men in your culture can't control themselves to the point where you have to cover yourself completely? How about throwing off the shackles and forcing THEM to grow the fuck up?

[SVZ]

like American men are so much better Grimm

[Luna]

Does anyone still have the disco looking burqa get ups from APS?

[moomies]

That pink burqa pic was Grimmy's specialty along with the tub girl, man he pissed off so many ppl with sparkly burqa, remember?

[Grimmlok]

did someone say...

SPARKLY BURQA?!~