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Old October 22nd, 2009, 08:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Airline crew overshot Minneapolis airport by 150 miles

Airline crew overshot Minn. airport by 150 miles - Yahoo! News
MINNEAPOLIS – Two Northwest Airlines pilots failed to make radio contact with ground controllers for more than an hour and overflew their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles before discovering the mistake and turning around.
The plane landed safely Wednesday evening, apparently without passengers realizing that anything had been amiss. No one was hurt.
The Federal Aviation Administration said the crew told authorities they became distracted during a heated discussion over airline policy and lost track of their location, but federal officials are investigating whether pilot fatigue might also have played a role.
The National Transportation Safety Board does not yet know if the crew fell asleep, spokesman Keith Holloway said, calling that idea "speculative."
Flight 188, an Airbus A320, was flying from San Diego to Minneapolis with 144 passengers and five crew. The pilots dropped out of radio contact with controllers just before 7 p.m. CDT, when they were at 37,000 feet. The jet flew over the airport just before 8 p.m. and overshot it before communications were re-established at 8:14 p.m, the NTSB said.
The FAA notified the military, which put Air National Guard fighter jets on alert at two locations. As many as four planes could have been scrambled, but none took to the air.
"After FAA re-established communications, we pulled off," said Michael Kucharek, a North American Aerospace Defense Command spokesman.
Andrea Allmon, who had been traveling from San Diego on business, said no one on the plane knew anything was amiss until the end of the flight.
"Everybody got up to get their luggage and the plane was swarmed by police as we were getting our bags down from the overhead bins," she said.
She said they were kept on the plane briefly while police talked to the crew, then allowed off. She said she was "horrified" to learn what had happened.
"When I do my job I do my job," she said. "These guys are supposed to be paying attention to the flight. The safety of the passengers should be first and foremost. (It's) unbelievable to me that they weren't paying attention. Just not paying attention."
As of Thursday afternoon, NTSB investigators had not yet examined the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder, which were being sent to Washington for analysis. He said the agency was also seeking to interview the pilots, but had not scheduled a meeting.
One of the two pilots should have been paying attention to the radio, said Ronald Carr, a former Air Force and American Airlines pilot who teaches flight physiology at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. But he added that "sometimes you can have such heated discussions and get so distracted that you lose situational awareness, and when you're traveling seven miles a minute, that can happen pretty quick."
The two pilots have been suspended from flying while Delta Air Lines Inc. conducts an internal investigation, said Anthony Black, a spokesman for the Atlanta-based airline, which acquired Northwest last year. He refused to name them or give further details on their background or what happened in the air.
Air traffic controllers in Denver had been in contact with the pilots as they flew over the Rockies, FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said. But as the plane got closer to Minneapolis, she said, "the Denver center tried to contact the flight but couldn't get anyone."
Denver controllers notified their counterparts in Minneapolis, who also tried to reach the crew without success, Brown said. Controllers and the pilots finally resumed communication when the plane was over Eau Claire, Wis.
"Radar controllers were the whole time trying to make audio contact with that plane," said Tony Molinaro, an FAA spokesman in Chicago. He said he was not aware of controllers diverting any other flights, which was unnecessary because the Northwest jet was flying high enough to safely avoid planes approaching Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.

It was not clear who initiated communications when contact finally was made, Brown said.
After the plane landed, two airport police officers boarded the plane at the gate, which authorities said is standard procedure after a crew loses communication with air traffic controllers.
Kelly Regus, a spokeswoman for the Delta branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, declined to comment.
The Federal Aviation Administration is updating decades-old rules governing how long commercial pilots can fly and remain on duty. The NTSB also cautioned government agencies this week about the risks of sleep apnea contributing to transportation accidents. The board cited an incident in January 2008 when two go! airlines pilots feel asleep for at least 18 minutes during a midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo, Hawaii. The plane passed its destination before controllers raised the pilots, who landed safely. The captain was later diagnosed with sleep apnea.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 11:46 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The Federal Aviation Administration said the crew told authorities they became distracted during a heated discussion over airline policy and lost track of their location, but federal officials are investigating whether pilot fatigue might also have played a role.
It's nice to know that pilots can overshoot their landing because they were fighting about airline policy. At least, they didn't crash...this time.
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 12:20 AM   #3 (permalink)
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"sometimes you can have such heated discussions and get so distracted that you lose situational awareness, and when you're traveling seven miles a minute, that can happen pretty quick."
No, I'm sorry, but as a pilot with a planeload of passengers who need to get somewhere and it's your and your buddy's responsibility to get them there, your job is not to get into a heated discussion about ANYTHING. As the only two jackasses on the flying metal tube that you're operating that know how to get it where it's going safely, your job is to get it there safely, every time. Your job is not to lose situational awareness 35,000 above the planet with peoples' lives in your hands. This is just begging for lawsuits to be filed.
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 09:58 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I wonder if the CVR will reveal if they were actually having an argument, or if they were asleep.

Bad few days to be NWA/Delta.
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The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating how an international flight into Atlanta’s major airport landed on a taxiway instead of a runway early Monday. FAA spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen said Delta Flight 60, from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, to Atlanta’s Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport, was cleared to land about 6:05 a.m. Monday on Runway 27R but landed instead on Taxiway M, which runs parallel to the runway. The flight had 194 passengers and crew aboard, according to CNN affiliate WXIA. No other aircraft were on the taxiway, and there was no damage to either the taxiway or the plane, a Boeing 767, Bergen said.
Delta 767 lands on taxiway in Atlanta

^That's also not the first time that's happened. A while ago, there was a plane in, I want to say Taipei, that took off from the taxiway.

You know what, do away with aircraft automation. Bring back the old school analogue, vacuum tube instruments and go back to when flying was more than pushing autopilot at cruising altitude. So pilots actually have to you know FLY the plane.

I was watching CNN when they were covering this this morning, and I just couldn't help but roll my eyes when they did the whole, "Are you really safe when you're in the air?"
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 10:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Too bad the recording will only be for the last half hour. I think they were asleep. I bet they are both fired.
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 10:13 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I call bullshit. I say they were passed out cold. And not from exhaustion.
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 10:15 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I call bullshit. I say they were passed out cold. And not from exhaustion.
Naw-they were already screened for alcohol & drugs.
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 10:21 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Are all commercial airliners able to handle 300 extra miles of flight (150 past the airport, 150 back)? Is there always enough fuel to do that?
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 10:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Are all commercial airliners able to handle 300 extra miles of flight (150 past the airport, 150 back)? Is there always enough fuel to do that?
I'm definitely not sure on the numbers for commercial airliners, but aircraft are required to carry reserve fuel if they need to head to an alternate airport.
For IFR (instrument flying) flight at the private pilot level it's 45 minute reserve.
But I have absolutely no clue as to commercial airliner reserves. It might be similar to IFR flight at the PPL level.

Honestly, I could see the pilots falling asleep.
I know a 30000+ Air Canada pilot that flies international routes, and even he's admitted that with all of the automation in the cockpit, it gets almost boring and monotonous.
I mean, he wouldn't want to have any other career, and he loves flying and everything to do with it, but even he can admit it gets tiring.

He put it this way. Imagine going to work everyday on a freeway and having the car do all of the driving for you.
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 11:06 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by L1049 View Post
I'm definitely not sure on the numbers for commercial airliners, but aircraft are required to carry reserve fuel if they need to head to an alternate airport.
For IFR (instrument flying) flight at the private pilot level it's 45 minute reserve.
But I have absolutely no clue as to commercial airliner reserves. It might be similar to IFR flight at the PPL level.

Honestly, I could see the pilots falling asleep.
I know a 30000+ Air Canada pilot that flies international routes, and even he's admitted that with all of the automation in the cockpit, it gets almost boring and monotonous.
I mean, he wouldn't want to have any other career, and he loves flying and everything to do with it, but even he can admit it gets tiring.

He put it this way. Imagine going to work everyday on a freeway and having the car do all of the driving for you.
That sure isn't comforting.
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 11:42 PM   #11 (permalink)
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That sure isn't comforting.
He's never known anyone, personally, to fall asleep but basically said he can see why it does happen.

Than again in NWA fl 188's case, San Diego to Minneapolis isn't exactly a long flight

In my perfect little world, and if I owned an airline, I'd give an air horn to the flight attendants. And every hour on the hour, they'd go into the cockpit and let it rip. If the pilots weren't awake, they are now
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