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Thread: "Scientific" theory: water edition

  1. #1
    Super Moderator twitchy2.0's Avatar
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    Default "Scientific" theory: water edition

    Is "processed" water as dangerous as processed food?

    Answered on August 19, 2014
    Created March 27, 2010 at 1:22 AM

    Given that the human body is about 60% percent water, it seems to me we should be as concerned with the source and quality of our water as we are with that of our food.

    I began drinking reverse osmosis (R.O.) water last summer and continued to do so for about six months, at which point I decided to try well water straight from a local artesian well, which I have been hooked on ever since. The filtered water often seemed incapable of quenching my thirst and I would commonly go through a gallon of it every two days. So far, I have not had this problem with the well water, and a gallon of it lasts me four or five days because I am no longer as thirsty. My diet then, as now, was 100% real food, and because my thirst when drinking filtered water did not noticeably decrease in the fall and winter, I can rule out seasonal influences as an explanation for the discrepancy.

    Toward the end of my R.O. drinking days, I visited a local water filtering company which supplies ultra-filtered water (combining R.O., UV sterilization, deionization, and other methods) to many co-ops in my area. I got to talking with the owner (a very bright man with some impressive credentials, and an apparent trailblazer in the field of water filtration) and after a half hour or so, he offered to take me into the "back room" for an impromptu tour of their water processing facility. I obliged, and was led into a noisy, warehouse-like room littered (and I do mean littered) with innumerable large and ominous-looking tanks and tubes made of metal and plastic which one would think--by the sight and sound of it--were engaged in anything but the production of a beverage fit for human consumption, but that's precisely what they were purported to be doing (making an already "fit" beverage even "more fit," in fact!).

    The owner was very proud of the machinery, having personally designed much of it himself, as well as masterminding the company's unique algorithm for stripping water of absolutely every last little measurable thing. I think he expected me to be impressed, but in fact, I was slowly, silently horrified. Because suddenly it hit me that filtered water is processed water. And ever since, I can't help but suspect that processed water is to real water what processed food is to real food. It can't be the same. After all, we thought we understood food well enough to process it--thought it didn't make any difference what we took out as long as the calories were left in--and look where that got us. Why should things be any different with water? I suspect we understand it even less than food. Why shouldn't destructured, demineralized water react differently with the body than mineral rich water straight from the earth? And obviously paleo man never drank filtered water, for what that's worth.

    Now, granted, the aforementioned company's approach is a little more extreme than your average home carbon filter, but even if you don't employ equipment like they do, your municipal water provider probably does, and I wonder if in processing out the bad stuff, we also process out all the good stuff to a counterproductive degree. In other words, as bad as tap water with added chlorine and fluoride is, perhaps completely processed, "pure" water is even worse. Maybe "pure" water is actually "dead" water, just as "pure" pasteurized milk is "dead" milk. A google search on the dangers of R.O./deionized/distilled water reveals much disagreement on the matter, but when even the World Health Organization is sounding the alarm on filtered water, you really have to think twice about consuming it (though I guess you could also make the counterargument that if they have an opinion, it's probably wrong... but in this case, I think I side with them).

    I was blown away by the lecture on water presented by Gerald Pollack (from my own University of Washington) at last year's Weston Price conference. To reduce a nuanced and rigorously research-supported presentation to a cheap soundbite, water acts as a battery which receives a continual charge from incident light. The talk had nothing explicitly to do with filtered water, or what water to consume, but many implications for these could be teased out (and were, in the Q&A session following the talk) from Pollack's findings. How much of a charge could be held by filtered water with a total dissolved solids count of 0? Not much. More than anything, Pollack's presentation made me realize that there is far more to water than meets the eye, and our understanding of it is really quite limited. Sound familiar?

    When confronted with the inadequacy of present knowledge, where questions of health are concerned, I try to default to what worked for our ancestors. And they drank water straight from the earth, not water "made safe" by the government with chlorine and fluoride, or by companies (however well intentioned) selling purification systems to refine the hell out of it. Of course, I realize even natural spring or well water carries some risk due to the potential presence of environmental contaminants, but for now, I'll trust in the self-ordering wisdom of nature over the historically under-informed interventions of men. Water is so seemingly simple and (when abundant) inconsequential, that I think we often tend to underestimate its complexity and importance. If I had to drive three hours to get to a well, I'd probably settle for a good carbon filter, but having found one just twenty minutes away, I think it's well worth quitting the tap. As has been pointed out elsewhere on this site, findaspring.com is a great resource for locating nearby wells, at least in the US. Here in my backyard, the University of Washington offers free water quality testing (which I have not yet solicited, but plan to); you might seek out a similar organization nearby to avail yourself of if you're concerned about contamination.

    I realize anecdotal evidence only goes so far (or not so far at all), but I was sold on avoiding filtered water pretty much once and for all when a former co-worker, who had previously worked for a water filtration company, shared the story of a simple experiment he conducted with petals taken from the same flower and then dropped in two separate cups of water, one filtered (by reverse osmosis) and one unfiltered (not sure if it was from the tap or a natural source). After a day or two, the petals in the unfiltered water looked more or less the same as before. The petals in the filtered water, on the other hand, were unmistakably shriveled, looking as though they had the floral equivalent of a muscle wasting disease. The story sounds a bit sensationalist, I'll grant, but it makes a lot of intuitive sense to me. If water is always seeking a kind of equilibrium with its environment, wouldn't it make sense for the water without minerals to draw out minerals from the flower petals? Don't we already know that demineralized water does the same thing to pipes, leading to their corrosion? Is there any reason to suppose these same forces somehow cease to apply when we combine the same water with our bodies? Though I haven't tried it myself, I'd be interested if anyone could duplicate these results carrying out the same experiment at home.

    Well, that is all I have to put out there on the subject of "processed" water. What are other peoples' experiences and thoughts on the subject?

    Louisa
    on March 27, 2010
    at 08:28 AM

    I would never drink RO water. I researched water filtration about ten years ago and came to the conclusion that RO water was 'dead' water. I have used a carbon filter in the past, to remove chlorine/fluoride from the local water supply, but now have natural spring water coming directly to my house, so do not need to think about water filtration.
    Regarding what you say about: "Pollack's presentation made me realize that there is far more to water than meets the eye, and our understanding of it is really quite limited."
    We have a 'sacred' spring well in our village (connected to an old Abbey and a saintly monk who was healed by the water) and the locals still use it in preference to their tap water (which is also spring water) as they say it has healing properties. You can see many of the older generation filling up gallon containers most days summer and winter, often struggling to get the bottles into their cars. I have often asked myself, 'Is it really worth all that effort?' and 'What do they know that we don't?'
    great question, it has made me think.......

    conciliator
    on December 06, 2011
    at 11:39 PM

    Reverse osmosis water killed my sister.

    TanyaVyas
    on June 16, 2014
    at 09:41 AM

    Good Stuff! Much informative.
    Most city water supplies come from treated sewer water, the process of purifying the water takes out the harmful impurities. However, the filtration is not accurate enough to remove everything. So certain medications, antibiotics, and steroids top the list of those able to escape the purification process.
    (SPAM REMOVED)

    Jamie_9
    on August 27, 2011
    at 11:23 PM

    the other day I was wondering why I'm always thirsty and getting cramps from our reverse osmosis filter that supposedly re- minerals our water on one of the stages with a wholesome mineral bar? (maybe it does not work or maybe the minerals are not wholesome - I do not know what to think of this yet) well anyway, every time I got cramps I would have to take a sachet of electrolyte powder and add it to my RO water which would get rid of my cramps almost instantly (strange I thought) so what I did was I went and purchased a 10L tank of spring water drank that, and all it took was 1 cup to quench my thirst....when RO water never seemed to quench it (strange I thought - plus my urine with RO water was always yellow but with spring water all it took was 1-3 cups a day to keep it white...I know personal right lol) I came to the conclusion that RO water does not replace the electrolytes the my body has lost, and that I'm constantly running on empty in this area, which would explain all my health problems despite my mostly organic and or raw organic food diet and wholesome nutrition supplementation ( which should be making me feel awesome and in the past it had till I switched water? ) but because there was one thing was refined/dead/aggressive, that was the most important thing in the equation and that was all that was needed to ruin all my hard work at staying healthy! amazing in my opinion! anyway I will be taking notes at how well I recover from this change in water and will probably post another comment? considering I'm one big science experiment you guys might be interested in some solid reassuring data?

    paleohacks
    on April 01, 2010
    at 05:37 AM

    Interesting. Makes me glad we drink creek water when we are in Canada.

    Ed
    on March 27, 2010
    at 03:15 PM

    Commonly used rehydration solutions, in both sports and illness, contain sugar and minerals (salts). Rehydration solutions not only replace lost electrolytes and calories, they are also absorbed more rapidly and are less likely to induce nausea than pure water. Evolutionarily, this is not surprising to me. Distilled water was probably rare until recent times, so paleos used fruits, vegetables and mineral water sources for hydration. It makes sense that we find mineral waters more refreshing and thirst-quenching than distilled or RO waters. However, it would be a leap to say that distilled water may actually be harmful. If we're adapted to say 98% H2O, then 100% H2O is not much of a stretch for us. Contrast this with acetic acid. Vinegar contains up to 18% acetic acid, and is considered to be a healthy food. 100% acetic acid is a caustic poison. From 18 to 100% is a huge difference, but from ~98 to 100%, eh, no big deal.


    source: https://www.paleohacks.com/water/is-...say-alert-397#
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    Elite Member stella blue's Avatar
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    Reverse osmosis water killed my sister.


    Most city water supplies come from treated sewer water
    This is not even remotely true.

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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    It seems like most of the posters are discussing water as if it's the only thing in their diet.

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    Super Moderator twitchy2.0's Avatar
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    The site is a goldmine of practical advice!

    Hot car instead of infrared dry sauna

    Answered on May 27, 2016
    Created May 26, 2016 at 3:36 PM




    Not so much paleo question, but I want to hear your opinion because many knowledged people here. Let's say I want to detox and I don't have access to sauna. Would be sitting into hot car similar as infrared dry sauna? I tried that today and after 10 minutes I was totaly wet. I guess this could work, but better to sit on back seats to avoid uv radiation if sun is shining from ahead. What is your opinion?


    esprit


    on May 27, 2016
    at 05:09 PM

    This sounds dangerous. What if you pass out and no one finds you?



    https://www.paleohacks.com/detox/hot...ry-sauna-40739
    As Canadian as possible under the circumstances

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    Elite Member Kittylady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twitchy2.0 View Post
    The site is a goldmine of practical advice!

    Hot car instead of infrared dry sauna

    Answered on May 27, 2016
    Created May 26, 2016 at 3:36 PM




    Not so much paleo question, but I want to hear your opinion because many knowledged people here. Let's say I want to detox and I don't have access to sauna. Would be sitting into hot car similar as infrared dry sauna? I tried that today and after 10 minutes I was totaly wet. I guess this could work, but better to sit on back seats to avoid uv radiation if sun is shining from ahead. What is your opinion?


    esprit


    on May 27, 2016
    at 05:09 PM

    This sounds dangerous. What if you pass out and no one finds you?



    https://www.paleohacks.com/detox/hot...ry-sauna-40739
    I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. Hunter S Thompson

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    Elite Member Brookie's Avatar
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    So, it's not JUST water - it's SuperWater. Sign me up.
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    Elite Member Brah's Avatar
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    This raw vegan said he peed too much so he gave up drinking water.

    https://munchies.vice.com/en/article...-water-a-day-2

    This Man Survives on Exactly Zero Glasses of Water a Day

    BY TALIA RALPH


    November 1, 2015

    Never Miss A Story



    Don’t you just hate how your body makes its needs known at all the wrong times? Like when it wakes you up in the middle of the night, reminding you of all those drinks you poured into your system that are now sloshing around your bladder, or jolts you awake to bolt to the bathroom, or sweats profusely on a first date or important job interview?
    Peter Filak has found an answer to these nuisances: Stop drinking water. Hell, stop drinking any and all liquids.
    Filak is a former registered nurse, a current webcam model—his far more civilized term for online pornography actor—and an avid health and lifestyle reformer, and he claims to have not taken a sip of water since May 5, 2012 at 5 PM. (That’s not counting some sodas and chocolate milks here and there, in the early days of his experiment. Cut him some slack—he’s waging an intense battle against a gnarly addiction to processed food.)
    Filak says he survives on around 800 to 1,000 calories a day, solely consumed in the form of whole fruits and vegetables. Even his dog, a chihuahua-shih-tzu-papillon-Pekingese mix named Sachi, is on the diet. He’ll have a couple apples and a banana before their standard eight- to ten-mile hikes; she’ll get a kiwi or some carrots if she’s thirsty.

    “Even when you’re filtering water, you’re taking out one chemical and putting in another …[especially] the filtered water where chlorine and fluoride and all those other happy things are added to it,” he explains in one of the many videos about nutrition, disease, and addiction that he posts to his website, More Apples a Day.“Especially as I went into a raw fruit and vegetable diet, I’d be waking up two to three times a night to pee. So it just didn’t make sense to me. I didn’t understand why I had to be drinking all that water.”
    There are other lifestyle benefits, too, Filak explains: He spends almost zero time in the kitchen, has seemingly boundless creative energy (see: his YouTube channel), and, his personal favorite: “I don’t sweat or produce any odor.”
    When I first learned about Filak and his no-water gospel, it sent a shiver down my well-hydrated spine. If I have a religion in this world, it is water. To me, it is the crystal-clear, ice-cold answer to most of life’s daily discomforts: colds and coughs, dry mouth, killer hangovers, mid-afternoon slumps, existential crises. I am a bottle-carrying member of the eight-glasses-a-day club. When in doubt, I drink H2O.
    Filak, on the other hand, doubts the very premise of hydration. As a raw-food vegan, he aims to survive only on fruits and vegetables. (Along with a Taco Bell burrito here and there; more on that later.) His goal is to live as long as possible; he hopes to reach 150 years old. This dream has been brewing for a while for the 26-year-old; he decided he didn’t want to drink alcohol or do drugs when he was only in third grade. He signs his online treatises with the phrase “LIVE longer we will.”
    “I began this process of self-education at an an early age,” he tells me over Skype, from his bed in Seattle. He moved west six months ago from Pennsylvania because there was more interest and enthusiasm there for his message of healthful eating and non-drinking. He voraciously reads books about disease and addiction, citing The China Study,The Emperor of All Maladies, and the documentaries Forks Over Knives andFat, Sick and Nearly Dead as fundamental influences.
    Filak doubts the very premise of hydration. As a raw-food vegan, he aims to survive only on fruits and vegetables. He hopes to reach 150 years old.

    Another reason for his move is ongoing tension with his family; he told me his parents found his lifestyle choices difficult to stomach at first.
    “The general consensus was that I was being a moron,” he says. “I’ve always had revelations with my parents. When I told them I was a vegan, my mom was crying, my dad was upset, they said I was OCD, and that there was something seriously wrong with me.” But now both of his parents (his father is a former executive chef; his mother, a nurse) are vegan, and his father has even done a juice cleanse—though both are still drinking fluid.
    Filak walked away from his nursing job in December of 2012, in large part due to his increasing disagreement with the dietary recommendations being made in his hospital. “I just realized that hospitals are run like businesses,” he told me.
    Since then, he has focused on his writing. (He has penned five books, which he self-publishes on Amazon, on topics ranging from sexuality to food addiction; two more are on the way.) In addition to his YouTube proselytizing, he has also been a contributing performer on Chaturbate—a website whose slogan is “The act of masturbating while chatting online”—though he has taken a break recently.
    In any case, I couldn’t see how we were going to get along, let alone get through this interview. And that was before he urged me to try it.
    “If you want to bring some interesting perspective to your piece, I would ask that you take my no-water challenge,” he wrote to me in an email prior to our Skype chat. “I always actively encourage my readers and viewers to doubt me in my beliefs, and beyond that, to see for themselves instead of just believing me, or in other words, to take the necessary risk. So here it is:
    “Go one day where you eat nothing but watermelon. Don’t eat anything else or drink anything at all. By the end of the day, you will likely never want to eat watermelon again because you will be peeing so freakin’ much (this is the very reason I don’t eat it that often). Then go a day, or a few, it’s up to you, where you eat nothing but apples or pears. Then a day, or a few, of nothing but bananas. Then a day, or a few, of nothing but carrots. Do this all consecutively.”
    I balked, but I had to admit I was curious. I didn’t think I was putting myself in danger—I’ve seen many a seven-day juice cleanser live to tell the tale—but I still checked in with a nutritionist about the non-liquid lifestyle choice.
    “Any diet that excludes any food group is a fad and completely unsustainable,” Lisa Sasson, a clinical associate professor of nutrition at New York University, told me. “Dehydration is very serious. Water has fluoride, which is important for dental health. It cleanses our palates, contributes to important bodily functions, helps our kidneys. I could list 20 critical functions of fluid.”
    With that advice in my back pocket, I forged ahead with Filak’s suggestions anyway. I forwent my morning chug of two glasses of water, bought a giant container of chopped watermelon, and headed to my office job, determined to give it my best shot. By lunchtime, I was feeling pretty good, and hadn’t peed nearly as much as I had been warned.Maybe this Filak character is on to something, I thought.

    Then, my co-workers ordered pizza for a birthday. My greatest obsession, after water, is pizza. You can guess how the rest of my challenge went. By the time I stumbled to a water fountain that afternoon, I might as well have emerged from a week-long desert wander. The cold gush of water hitting my mouth was a revelation. I briefly wondered if I was a hydration addict.
    Addiction is central to Filak’s food philosophy: He struggles with an addiction to fast food, counting Taco Bell and Pizza Hut as among his greatest vices, which he makes a point of confessing on Twitter. He prefers the term “modern food” to designate anything under the umbrella of food that’s industrially processed or not found in nature.
    “I no longer look at someone addicted to any drug, whether it be food or heroin, the same way. I understand,” he says. “If everyone is addicted to something, no one is addicted at all. If a few are addicted to something, it will be avoided by most, because it is recognized as an addiction. And this is the thick concrete wall between addiction to modern food and something snorted.”
    But Filak doesn’t expect you to buy his way of life hook, line, sinker, and chopped watermelon.
    “I always tell people, ‘see for yourself.’ I was very cynical for a while, calling everyone a moron. I embraced what made sense and what was obvious to me. I’ve come to understand i can’t force my perspective on others. I’d rather people educate themselves.”






  9. #9
    Elite Member missbazilb's Avatar
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    So he's a raw organic vegan who eats Taco Bell?

  10. #10
    Elite Member JazzyGirl's Avatar
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    Ohmygosh. No water? Voluntarily? . I am dying of thirst just reading this. Off to chug a glass or two.

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