Thora Birch Pissed Off a Lot of People

[Karistiona]

Wes Bentley gave me funny feelings when i watched American Beauty.

I'm sort of torn on this article, some of the things she says make her sound far younger than 31, and she also sounds very bitter. I can understand why that is though, she must have thought that she was set after American Beauty and it's a shame her career fizzled because she is talented. It's definitely got a whole lot to do with her dad, he's an epic creeper and obviously a piss-poor manager.

[Sasha]

Since we are getting real, lets be real, she also doesn't look like Scarlet Johanson. And in Hollywood that matters much more than actual talent. I also have no issue with her saying Murphy was crazy. She was.

Well it sucks. Steve Buscemi works with Scorcese material and he's both ugly and, reportedly, often difficult and mouthy. Thora's not exactly ugly.

[witchcurlgirl]

No, I don't think she's ugly at all. but she's not a T & A pinup. Sadly, even now men are allowed to be ugly. Women are not. Also, men are 'difficult', 'driven' or 'type a', where women are just 'bitches'.

[Sasha]

Right, exactly.

[MohandasKGanja]

Oh, yeah? Well, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that Sarah Jessica Parker's career never happened!

[Sasha]

Oh, yeah? Well, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that Sarah Jessica Parker's career never happened!

SJP probably couldn't start out today and get anywhere. And you know, back in the day women who looked like Marsha Mason, Carrie Fisher, Ellen Burstyn, et al--not ugly but not gorgeous either--could score great scripts on a steady basis. The Guardian piece points out that Thora and Scarlett landed on the cusp of the Grunge Girl/bombshells only need apply era. [which coincidentally coincides with the era of unapologetic misogyny.]

[MohandasKGanja]

By the same token, nobody has ever, that I'm aware of, cast Buscemi as a romantic lead. Until Boardwalk Empire, he's been a character actor. The only reason he's able to get women on Boardwalk Empire is because he's a powerful mob guy. Nothing says, "Powerful mob guy" than a guy like Buscemi being with an attractive woman.

I also don't think he has a reputation as being difficult, unless going back to his old fire company to pull 12-hour shifts after 9/11 with his old firefighting crew (FDNY Engine 55) qualifies as difficult.

[CornFlakegrl]

Misogyny exists. So does bratty know it all teens with creepy greedy Dads. Both suck.

[MohandasKGanja]

Agreed.

[Sasha]

By the same token, nobody has ever, that I'm aware of, cast Buscemi as a romantic lead. Until Boardwalk Empire, he's been a character actor. The only reason he's able to get women on Boardwalk Empire is because he's a powerful mob guy. Nothing says, "Powerful mob guy" than a guy like Buscemi being with an attractive woman.

I also don't think he has a reputation as being difficult, unless going back to his old fire company to pull 12-hour shifts after 9/11 with his old firefighting crew (FDNY Engine 55) qualifies as difficult.

I didn't accuse Buscemi of being a horrible person, I used him as one example out of the several who could be named of less than attractive actors who MIGHT be--rumors, ok?--difficult to work with. And nowhere did I say that all parts for mouthy, intelligent actresses in H'wood should be romantic leads. Point being male actors in Hollywood can be mouthy, difficult, even bratty and impossible, and posses relatively less than leading man quality looks yet can still find steady and rewarding work, and even starring roles. Can you really sit there and say the same thing about the Thoras of Hollywood?

[CookieMueller]

Ghost World came out the year I graduated high school and I WAS Enid, that's the way I looked, the way I dressed, the way I talked...it was uncanny. I also grew up with Hocus Pocus and Now and Then so as a result I've always rooted for her. But yeah it does seem like you only hear from her when something has fucked up for her. Her best hope is to get some killer role in her 40s that reignites her career as an "adult" actress because her time as a young leading lady is gone and won't be back as long as she has this kind of bitterness.

[Kittylady]

Steve Buscemi is very charismatic (he's on my list of "Gods help me but I would" men) and a good actor. Mo, I've read about him returning to volunteer at his old Firehouse after 9/11 and for that he's got my absolute admiration.

As for Thora Birch I've never knowingly seen her act in anything so I can't say whether she is a good actress but if she wants to at least do character parts then maybe she should learn to bite her tongue and curb the attitude. I agree that the disparity in the way the sexes are treated when they give attitude is unfair, and I do agree that too many poor actresses (and actors) are getting plum roles that they can't do justice to because of their looks but unfortunately negotiating workplace politics is something a lot of us have to do, whether that's in Hollywood or in an office.

[MohandasKGanja]

I didn't accuse Buscemi of being a horrible person, I used him as one example out of the several who could be named of less than attractive actors who MIGHT be--rumors, ok?--difficult to work with. And nowhere did I say that all parts for mouthy, intelligent actresses in H'wood should be romantic leads. Point being male actors in Hollywood can be mouthy, difficult, even bratty and impossible, and posses relatively less than leading man quality looks yet can still find steady and rewarding work, and even starring roles. Can you really sit there and say the same thing about the Thoras of Hollywood?

Sorry, I didn't see this until now. I know you didn't accuse him of being a horrible person, but I haven't heard of him being difficult either.

Julia Roberts was 24 when she made "Hook" with Spielberg, and it was noted by everyone, including statements by Spielberg, that she was difficult to deal with. But because she opens films (or used to) people were willing to keep hiring her. If Birch had a track record of making money, my feeling is that producers and directors would still be beating a path to her door. My point is that it's about money more than anything else. I don't even get the impression that Birch is, or was, difficult. I think she is looking for excuses for why she fizzled out.

[Sasha]

Sorry, I didn't see this until now. I know you didn't accuse him of being a horrible person, but I haven't heard of him being difficult either.

Julia Roberts was 24 when she made "Hook" with Spielberg, and it was noted by everyone, including statements by Spielberg, that she was difficult to deal with. But because she opens films (or used to) people were willing to keep hiring her. If Birch had a track record of making money, my feeling is that producers and directors would still be beating a path to her door. My point is that it's about money more than anything else. I don't even get the impression that Birch is, or was, difficult. I think she is looking for excuses for why she fizzled out.

Julia was generally considered gorgeous back in the early days of her career and let's just say reportedly not unwilling to utilize the usual avenues starlets can use to land parts. And yeah, a moneymaker, which is hard to get around even for female starlets.
I can't find any good pieces on it now, and apparently she's now denying it ever happened but way back when Spielberg reportedly blacklisted Dee Wallace Stone for being too mouthy on the set of ET. Not bratty, not late to the set, not drunk or high, just outspoken about the script/her character. There's a difference.

[Kathie_Moffett]

Julia was hot in a horsey way, which helped, and also quite ruthless and purportedly not above utilizing Goopy's favorite career advancement techniques--which might be at least part of why she's a pudding full of bitchy hatred nowadays. There are many varieties of bitter.

I don't think the fact that Thora sounds like an attitudinous nut whose personal issues (including the creepy Dad) trashed her career should in any way obscure the points Sasha and WCG are making upthread:

male actors in Hollywood can be mouthy, difficult, even bratty and impossible, and posses relatively less than leading man quality looks yet can still find steady and rewarding work, and even starring roles. Can you really sit there and say the same thing about the Thoras of Hollywood?

And let's get real here. 'Difficult' and 'bratty' standards are vastly different for talented young male actors who can practically get away with murder and still have plum roles thrown at them. This double standard also applies to difficult young male actors with bratty parent-managers in tow. It's not as if bratty and difficult have ever instantly disqualified anybody in that town so Thora has obviously pointed out a real and ongoing problem for talented yet mouthy and intelligent young female starlets in Hollywood. As long as the girl is pretty and knows how to keep her mouth shut and knows how simper and coo in the presence of power she can keep working.

No, I don't think she's ugly at all. but she's not a T & A pinup. Sadly, even now men are allowed to be ugly. Women are not. Also, men are 'difficult', 'driven' or 'type a', where women are just 'bitches'.

SJP probably couldn't start out today and get anywhere. And you know, back in the day women who looked like Marsha Mason, Carrie Fisher, Ellen Burstyn, et al--not ugly but not gorgeous either--could score great scripts on a steady basis. The Guardian piece points out that Thora and Scarlett landed on the cusp of the Grunge Girl/bombshells only need apply era. [which coincidentally coincides with the era of unapologetic misogyny.]

Vouch to all.