One of the women in my office just said to her the difference between Michael Jackson and Kennedy is that MJ victimized children and Kennedy was in the car with a consenting adult.
You don't engage with crazies. Because they're, you know, fucking crazy. - WitchCurlGirl
[QUOTE=rollo;1858927]Think daylight may have helped out?Originally Posted by sparkly
Yes, but didn't he dive back into the water several times to try and save her? He probably thought she was already dead.
So he said. Funny how she was found within 20 minutes the next day.
You don't engage with crazies. Because they're, you know, fucking crazy. - WitchCurlGirl
[quote=sluce;1858931]And diving in, in the first place, yes.
This is true and hits on something that has always bothered me about the Kennedys. If that had been Joe Blow behind the wheel of the car that MJK drowned in, and he left the scene, didn't alert the authorities, didn't try to get help, left her to die and went to sleep, would he have gotten jail time? I think he would have. He would have been reviled by the public for months. But because it's a Kennedy they're treated differently.
....as my Dad used to say, Kennedy's are America's royalty......too bad this is a democracy....
....and how many accomplishments does it take to wipe out a vehicular homicide?.......
[quote=rollo;1858927]If he dove back into the water to save her, she was still alive at that time and would have been screaming and banging on the car.Yes, but didn't he dive back into the water several times to try and save her? He probably thought she was already dead.
So he said. Funny how she was found within 20 minutes the next day.
In 3 hours you can wine and dine at a 5 star resturant and still have enough time to make it to the movies.
Many brilliant, accomplished people have another twisted side. For me, it depends on how unethical their deeds are. It's one thing to cheat on your taxes, another thing to rape someone. I think there is a line.
Pedophilia or not aiding someone slowly dying in a submerged car for 3 hours (that you were driving) crosses that line.
[QUOTE=cynic;1858942]....as my Dad used to say, Kennedy's are America's royalty......too bad this is a democracy....
....and how many accomplishments does it take to wipe out a vehicular homicide?.......[/QUOTE]
According wiki it is 5.
You don't engage with crazies. Because they're, you know, fucking crazy. - WitchCurlGirl
I'm just a little bit concerned that so many are willing to give drunk drivers so much leniency. Don't get me wrong, I understand the correlation - that since he didn't hold her head underwater, then he's not guilty of murder. I just can't get on that boat, I'm sorry. Theres many derivations of the word murder, and I think this was murder - not in the legal sense (manslaughter) but in my head its almost LESS understandable and MORE reprehensible than a spur of the moment crime of passion that happens so quickly. This was a legitimate, slow decision to leave a woman to die and not call for help. I also don't understand how someone can describe this night as a "dumbass mistake", it just seems flippant. I could maybe get on board that the accident itself was a mistake. I don't think he was actively thinking that he wanted to kill her, as don't most drunk drivers. Its the actions afterwards that are egregious and unbelievable. As someone mentioned before, the indications that he "didn't know someone was there" is BS because in his first story of what happened, he said he went looking for her. I don't believe this happened. I think he was disoriented and panicky, and knew he was screwed. I think his statement that he hitched a ride back to his hotel are the most accurate. I'm just amazed that he was in enough control of his faculties to call two personal aides, and not call for help. These things aren't "mistakes". I think I would have given him more leniency if he had exhibited any kind of remorse or received any type of retribution. But no, and some people are actually making him into a heroic figure in his death. Much like MJ, I just can't separate personal life from professional. They both were prominent in their profession, but...I also think the whole "other woman in the car" story is a bit far-fetched and I think its an effort to make what he did almost seem valiant - like, no he didn't kill that woman, he was protecting the other woman's honor! Something tells me adultery is more acceptable than murder, so if this was the case his political aides would have told him to come clean. He was just a spoiled, rich upper-crust kid who didn't have to pay for any of his mistakes, lets call a spade a spade. I'm glad he ended up becoming a good public servant, and he brought about a lot of public good, but I just can't get on board with the faux worship (not here, just in the general media today). That being said, I hope he was able to come to grips with what he did and find some sort of peace, I couldn't live with myself personally. I also think we lost a great senator, even if I don't think he was a good man. And that is a shame.
Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock
^^ I thought he did show remorse, even if it was years and years later? Not suggesting that even if he did then he was 'innocent', but you know, I thought he had.
Hell is empty, and all the devils are here
I suppose any rich person who doesn't go to jail over a particular crime is going to be accused of using his/her connections to get out of it. However, lots of middle-class and poor people wriggle out of getting their just desserts for crimes, too. There's not always some deep, dark rich person conspiracy that allows people who were involved in something shady to go on their merry way.
With regard to the exact circumstances of Ted diving back into the water and whether he was able to rescue her or not: How deep was the water? How far from the shore was the water? How visible was the car? What was the temperature of the water? How good a swimmer was Ted? (Just because he's bloated doesn't mean he swims as well as a manatee, too.) How familiar with the area was Ted? If Kopechne couldn't open the door from the inside, what hope did Ted have to open it from the outside?
You write some really fantastic posts.
Only the good die young.........................
bitches like me live forever!!!!!!!!!!!!
^ Um, and what if that part never happened?
This is all ridiculous. I've been trying to stay out of this crap, but I'm going to weigh in.
First off, he DID try to save her:
Pulling from a few main sources (i'll link below), here's a rough timeline:In a coroner’s inquest, he denied having been drunk, and said he made “seven or eight” attempts to save Kopechne before exhaustion forced him to shore. And though he sought help from friends at the party, Kennedy did not report the accident to police until the following morning. Kennedy eventually pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of an accident. In a televised address to residents of his home state, Kennedy called his conduct in the hours following the accident “inexplicable” and called his failure to report the wreck immediately “indefensible.
Sen. Edward Kennedy dies at 77 – The CNN Wire - CNN.com Blogs
11:15- Left the party
11:30- wreck
11:45 - 12:15 (estimate) trying to rescue her:
'Kennedy claimed at the inquest that he called Kopechne's name several times from the shore, then tried to swim down to reach her seven or eight times, then rested on the bank for around fifteen minutes.' "The current was too strong and he became exhausted. Suffering from shock and injuries sustained in the accident, he lay on the bank before walking back to the cottage, on the way passing Dyke House.
12:35- arrives on foot at Lawrence Cottage' where the party was.
It was 1.5 miles away, so maybe that took 20 minutes to walk.
12:50: Kennedy and 2 friends, Gargan and Markham, drive back to accident scene.
All 3 men keep diving into the water to try to rescue her. 'Gargan told her [Kennedy's secretary] he found a broken window, squeezed himself through it, and managed to make contact with Mary Jo's body. Gargan could tell by "the unnatural feel" of the body that she was dead. During the dives Gargan injured his arm, a fact confirmed by Joseph Kennedy's nurse Rita Dallas. Fearing he would drown, Gargan emerged from the car and returned to the cottage. He waited until morning for help to arrive in the belief that Kennedy had reported the accident and help would arrive soon.
2 AM or sometime before - Kennedy back at hotel.
2:25 AM- Kennedy talks to hotel manager.
'He walked out on to the balcony and spoke to the manager of the inn, mumbling something about noisy guests and asking for the time.'
2:25 AM- 7AM- Kennedy in room
'For the next five hours, alone in his room, Kennedy either slept or contemplated the situation he was in.' 'However, Kennedy did not report the accident but, in his own words, remained in his room and willed the incident away.'
Also important to note: 'Kennedy was suffering from shock, exposure, and head and neck injuries — it is entirely understandable that he would blurt out confused, irrational and illogical thoughts as he sought to make sense of the crisis he was in. Accounts of countless road traffic accidents testify to the most bizarre behavior of drivers or passengers who have suffered shock following a collision.'
7AM (estimate)- Police are called and the body is found at the accident site.
Other important points:
- 'There is no credible scientific evidence to support the theory of suffocation.'
- 'Gargan said Mary Jo was dead when he and Markham made a second attempt to rescue her at around 2 a.m. or so. There is no credible evidence to suggest that Mary Jo was still alive in the car for anything but a brief period of time after the car entered the water.'
- 'Three of the car's windows had been forced in, making it unlikely that an air pocket would have been trapped, especially as the strong current would have filled the car quickly with water.
-This doesn't excuse any part of his actions. But: 'Even if Kennedy had alerted rescue services by telephone, there are compelling arguments presented by Lange and DeWitt that they would have arrived too late to save Mary Jo. Only a Coast Guard rescue helicopter could have saved her within the time available, Lange and DeWitt argue.
- 'As a young athletic woman and a swimmer, she would not have waited for any length of time to be rescued.' It is also reasonable to assume that had Mary Jo been alive shortly after the car hit the water she would have made an attempt to escape rather than wait for help.'
Summarized from here:
The Bridge at Chappaquiddick by Mel Ayton
Now can we let both of them rest in peace?
Thank you! Seriously can someone please fix it?
The story line being bandied about that he didn't know someone was in the car is nonsense, and proven nonsense from the testimony at the inquest. Two other men went to the canal to help him look for her:
They confirmed to Judge Boyle that they had helped Teddy try to rescue Miss Kopechne shortly after the car submerged. Gargan told of diving into the water and trying to open the car doors. The car's two left doors, scratched and wrapped in burlap, were brought to the courthouse, presumably because they might bear evidence of the attempts to open them or indicate why such efforts had failed.
The two attorneys claimed that they had advised Kennedy to report the accident to police immediately after failing to reach Mary Jo. The three drove in another car to the ferry landing to cross the inlet for that purpose. Markham and Gargan testified that they were astonished when Kennedy suddenly jumped into the water and swam toward Edgartown. They watched until he safely reached the opposite shore, and assumed that he would then go directly to police headquarters. Kennedy apparently went instead to the Shire-town Inn, where he was staying, changed his clothes, complained of a noisy party to the night manager and returned to his room.
Markham and Gargan spent the night at the cottage where the twelve members of the Kennedy party had held their cookout. In the morning, Markham took the ferry, went to Kennedy's room and learned that the Senator had not yet called the police. The two returned to pick up Gargan, tried to reach Attorney Burke Marshall by telephone for advice, and then went to the police station in Edgartown. By then, the car had been found and the police were looking for Kennedy.
Nation: Inquest on Chappaquiddick - TIME
This is from a 1970 Time article on the inquest. He was also not some foolish youth that made a bad decision. He was 37 when Chappaquiddick happened.
All of God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.
honestly, i just don't care so much about something that happened 40 years ago. yes, he made a mistake. at best, he was an entitled brat who acted like a coward and didn't help her, at worst, it was vehicular manslaughter. either way, it was a horrible mistake but not the same as actually planning this woman's murder. and yeah, it was a horrible tragedy and maybe he did get off lightly because of his name but i guess it just doesn't piss me off as much as it does others since it was so long ago and i think he made up for it in many other ways. yes, he was a flawed human being and no one is denying that but i don't think one horrible, tragic mistake almost half a century ago should negate everything else a person does in their lives. i just don't think that's how life works and i don't quite understand how or why people are so obsessed with this one event, to the exclusion of everything else.
I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld
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