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Thread: Sam Smith on his gender fluidity: ‘I feel just as much woman as I am man’

  1. #106
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    ^^^
    thanks. Now I’m kind of tempted to go back to Germán lessons but yeah it’s such a tough language and even more so if you’re not living in a German speaking place which sort of forces you to learn faster
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  2. #107
    Elite Member Beeyotch's Avatar
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    Man, I'm not in any way equipped to learn German but everything I learn about them appeals to my love of efficiency. Down to my husband complaining about people refusing to jaywalk (late at night on an abandoned street). The German person was like, "but the sign says don't walk!" And my husband was all "but it's 3 am, there's no one here!" I've pretty much always been inclined to side with the German. Rules!
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  3. #108
    Elite Member SHELLEE's Avatar
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    I was telling my sil, the mother of my trans nephew, about this thread. She said that her son was talking the other day and using "they" and "them". She finally had to say "how many people are you talking about"? to which he replied one person. The times, they are a changing.
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  4. #109
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHELLEE View Post
    I was telling my sil, the mother of my trans nephew, about this thread. She said that her son was talking the other day and using "they" and "them". She finally had to say "how many people are you talking about"? to which he replied one person. The times, they are a changing.
    Or not since it’s been common parlance for 800 years....

  5. #110
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novice View Post
    Or not since it’s been common parlance for 800 years....
    Yes, definitely a literary tradition, but it would just as easily get the red pen by someone who was grading your homework: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/educati...y-grammar-rule

  6. #111
    Gold Member Lalasnake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkbunnyslippers View Post
    No, but er/sie/es (he/she/it) conjugate the same.
    For example: ich weiß (I know)
    du weißt (you know)
    er/sie/es weiß (he/she/it knows)
    wir wissen (we know)
    ihr wisst (they know)
    Sie wissen (you know ((use for respect, unknown person)), and plural)

    I‘m still learning. It’s so deep, and so many rules.
    Speaking of German, the singular they actually reminds me of the formal you being essentially the same as the plural 3rd person (if I understand it correctly). The difference is that it's a 2nd person pronoun rather than a 3rd person pronoun, and of course that it's gender neutral & formal.

    It also makes me think of the use of thou and you. You used to be the plural pronoun (eg. I invited you), and thou was singular (eg. Thou invited me). Thou was also informal/familiar, and you was formal. Those fancy thees and thous in the KJV are meant to be personal prayers to God, and you can see in Shakespeare plays when a formally familiar pair of characters are suddenly alienated from one another by use of their thous and yous.

    Eventually you replaced thou, so that for a while we were essentially saying "y'all" if you think about it (which is totally fine to say today, because the lack of thou means that we need a new plural 2nd person pronoun). Again, this using a plural form for a singular pronoun isn't such an odd thing.

    Incidentally, when this thou to you change happened, the Quakers were against it. They liked the familiarity and egalitarianism of using thou, and called it "plain speak". This has evolved to using "thee" in place of "you", without the normal thou conjugation, except they do keep "thy". "Thou invited me" would now be "Thee invited me" and "Thou givest me bread" would be "Thee gives me bread." Notice that that last example turns the 2nd person into 3rd person? I did. I think it's mostly because "Thee give me bread" sounds either like a command or like Thee is plural. This is because 'you' brought its plural verb endings with it when it became singular so that You decide and Y'all decide are the same.

    Sorry about the random use of quotation marks in this post. I'm too lazy to fix it.

  7. #112
    Elite Member SHELLEE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novice View Post
    Or not since it’s been common parlance for 800 years....
    Perhaps, but not how I’ve known it.
    Now get off my lawn!
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  8. #113
    Elite Member InigoMontoya's Avatar
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    Thanks, Lalasnake! I’d thought it was thou, thee, thine, and ye.

    Y’all is lazy southern speak for “you all.” If talking to one, we say “you.” If addressing a group, we say “y’all.” As in, maybe on Saturday game day, “Y‘all, it’s halftime—come on in to the kitchen for some snacks and top up your drinks or grab another beer.” Not that I’d know, or anything...

  9. #114
    Elite Member funky_chicken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkbunnyslippers View Post
    I won’t let me edit. I asked my husband, and he said the “d” also may be for “dual”.
    Männlich, Weiblich und Divers
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  10. #115
    Elite Member funky_chicken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    You’re right I’d forgotten about das Kind. Do you use the “es” pronoun to refer to people too? My German is super rusty at this point. I wouldn’t be surprised if German already came with a solution for gender neutral\inclusive language. So efficient
    Not really unfortunately. If you'd use "es" to refer to a person, it would sound very condescending.
    Even when talking about a girl, which technically would be correct, you don't really use it. "Siehst du das Mädchen dort drüben? - Ja, ich sehe sie, warum?" "Ich sehe es" would sound weird.
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  11. #116
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    Yeah that’s what I thought.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  12. #117
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHELLEE View Post
    Perhaps, but not how I’ve known it.
    Now get off my lawn!
    *tap dances on Shellee’s lawn*
    Quote Originally Posted by Lalasnake View Post
    Speaking of German, the singular they actually reminds me of the formal you being essentially the same as the plural 3rd person (if I understand it correctly). The difference is that it's a 2nd person pronoun rather than a 3rd person pronoun, and of course that it's gender neutral & formal.

    It also makes me think of the use of thou and you. You used to be the plural pronoun (eg. I invited you), and thou was singular (eg. Thou invited me). Thou was also informal/familiar, and you was formal. Those fancy thees and thous in the KJV are meant to be personal prayers to God, and you can see in Shakespeare plays when a formally familiar pair of characters are suddenly alienated from one another by use of their thous and yous.

    Eventually you replaced thou, so that for a while we were essentially saying "y'all" if you think about it (which is totally fine to say today, because the lack of thou means that we need a new plural 2nd person pronoun). Again, this using a plural form for a singular pronoun isn't such an odd thing.

    Incidentally, when this thou to you change happened, the Quakers were against it. They liked the familiarity and egalitarianism of using thou, and called it "plain speak". This has evolved to using "thee" in place of "you", without the normal thou conjugation, except they do keep "thy". "Thou invited me" would now be "Thee invited me" and "Thou givest me bread" would be "Thee gives me bread." Notice that that last example turns the 2nd person into 3rd person? I did. I think it's mostly because "Thee give me bread" sounds either like a command or like Thee is plural. This is because 'you' brought its plural verb endings with it when it became singular so that You decide and Y'all decide are the same.

    Sorry about the random use of quotation marks in this post. I'm too lazy to fix it.
    Where I am from “thee” (“t’”) is informal frequently singular; thou (“tha”) is plural.
    As in “where’s tha from” “thee’s in trouble”.

    ”One” is both singular and plural. Just to throw that into the conversation.
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  13. #118
    Elite Member Beeyotch's Avatar
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    Many moons ago as a little girl and an ESL speaker, I was so frustrated at all the exceptions to the convoluted, seemingly arbitrary rules. So after a lifetime of memorizing and adhering to said arbitrary rules and exceptions, I am pretty dang pissed that they're changing AGAIN, just whenever enough people feel like it. I dislike language/grammar changes.

  14. #119
    Super Moderator Tati's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InigoMontoya View Post
    Y’all is lazy southern speak for “you all.” If talking to one, we say “you.” If addressing a group, we say “y’all.”
    In Northern Ontario, it would be "youse guys"

    *shudder*
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  15. #120
    Super Moderator twitchy2.0's Avatar
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    Rural southern Ontario too. I think it came over with the Irish in the 1830s.
    As Canadian as possible under the circumstances

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