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Thread: Jeffrey Epstein (Allegedly) Commits Suicide in Jail

  1. #286
    czb
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    can a 12 year old consent? i thought that was the point of having a legal age.

    and i have no attorney training but i am now confused.

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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    A*O what are you talking about? Epstein was already convicted and served time, though not enough for what he did, and he was a registered sex offender at the time of his death. And he was given a ridiculously lenient deal that makes Brock turner’s look like overkill. And the only reason he was given that deal is because of his money and powerful connections, and if you think otherwise then I don’t know what to say to you, except that “emotion” has nothing to do with it: Trump’s former US labour secretary resigned because of that lenient deal (he was the prosecutor at the time). He was charged again before offing himself in jail and it turns out there were two parallel investigations going on, because the US Marshalls we’re looking into reports he’d been sighted with girls who looked 11 or 12 on his plane.
    Last edited by sputnik; September 13th, 2019 at 08:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Fawlty View Post
    My husband's Grandpa was a senior police officer in the Seychelles during the 1950s. Prince Philip was there for at least six months in the mid-50s. Grandpa Fawlty told me and hubs that Philip drank and shagged non-stop the whole time he was there! True story!
    Gross. I shudder to think what infections he transferred to his wife.
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    Silver Member Mrs Fawlty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beeyotch;37a47550
    Gross. I shudder to think what infections he transferred to his wife.
    When I finished nurse training I had three spare weeks and during this time I could choose to work in the healthcare setting of my choice. I met with my tutor and we decided that it would be useful to spend the time working in a setting that would benefit me in the future. I was given a list of different departments/specialities to choose from. Sooooo, I chose to spend the time working in a sexual health clinic, given that I was very interested in genito-urinary medicine/surgery.
    And at the end of my three week secondment one thing really stood out and that was...………………………………….the clinic's biggest client group were sailors. This group was comprised of merchant seamen and members of Her Majesty's Royal Navy! You made an excellent point in your post and it would be highly likely that he did *cough* give Elizabeth what could be called 'The gift that keeps on giving-lol!'

  5. #290
    A*O
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    Sput, why are you deliberately (?) misconstruing what I said? Yet again you seem incapable of having a respectful discussion with someone you disagree with. Are you that intolerant of an alternative point of view, or do you always just have to be right? As for the thinly veiled contempt and condescension, I’m not intimidated, just disappointed. See? I’m good at it too.

    Or maybe we should just agree to disagree and muddle along as frenemies. Truce?
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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    A*o, im not fighting with you, I’m just confused by your argument because you are ignoring the fact that he was already convicted before, except he got special treatment because of his connections (he basically came and went from prison as he pleased, without following protocol). The deal was pushed through by acosta and Epstein’s victims weren’t even notified. But anyway the point stands that had he not offend himself he most surely would have been convicted again and, with the scrutiny he was under and the public outrage (for once entirely justified), he never would have seen the light of day again. The girls’ testimony speaks for itself, and it has nothing to do with age of consent because it would have been illegal even if they had been 40. They were coerced, intimidated, raped, etc. Not to mention the underage porn and fake passports they found at his place. The guy was toast and he knew it.
    Plus I don’t see what’s disrespectful about my comment.
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    Elite Member whitetigeress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    Sigh. Maybe I didn’t express myself clearly. I’m NOT defending “old men fucking 12 yr olds” in any way. That would be pedophilia in almost any civilised jurisdiction. The point I was trying, and obviously failing, to make was that successfully prosecuting these people will be very difficult, not because they are rich and have powerful connections, but because from a strictly legal point of view (and the sex was consensual, or even reluctant) no offence was committed. Other laws were certainly broken but not that one.

    Maybe it’s my legal training back in the Bad Old Days when I learned to detach facts from feelings, but some legal principles haven’t changed, even in this brave new world we now live in. And applying those principles objectively and dispassionately while setting aside any personal opinions is still the basis of our justice system. It’s not perfect but it’s better than the alternative.

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    Unless the girls were younger than the legal age of consent, correct?
    Going by what you say, then the focus will have to be on the "other laws broken'.


    sooooooo.... should the age of consent be raised? Should there be a clause of what the age difference be??

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    Quote Originally Posted by faithanne View Post
    I meant specifically in relation to Epstein, like people saying "all the girls were late teens, which is gross but it's not illegal and HE'S NOT A PEDOPHILE". Sorry, a senior citizen fucking a 12 year old is a disgusting pedo.
    And even if the “girls” were over the age of consent where the “incident” was committed, if they were trafficked for sexual purposes, that’s the offence regardless of age? Yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Fawlty View Post
    My husband's Grandpa was a senior police officer in the Seychelles during the 1950s. Prince Philip was there for at least six months in the mid-50s. Grandpa Fawlty told me and hubs that Philip drank and shagged non-stop the whole time he was there! True story!
    I know someone’s dad that was barred (by Elizabeth) from taking him (Philip) to his (the other party)’s club as he always got completely bladdered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitetigeress View Post
    Unless the girls were younger than the legal age of consent, correct?
    Going by what you say, then the focus will have to be on the "other laws broken'.


    sooooooo.... should the age of consent be raised? Should there be a clause of what the age difference be??
    I absolutely believe that the age of consent should be raised, just like the age of criminal responsibility should
    be raised and we should not be charging children as adults for crimes. The fact is that the prefrontal cortex is immature until approximately age 26. That is the area of the brain that deals with logic, understanding the consequences of one’s actions, forethinking, etc. It’s why kids are more likely to engage in “groupthink” and why they tend to commit crimes in groups and not alone. There is even recent evidence that teens are less safe drivers because of brain development. 16 year olds are children. They are in no way capable of making a logical, reasoned decision to have sex with a man in his 40s and they will always be at risk of manipulation and maltreatment from someone so much older. It’s amazing to me that even the US Supreme Court recognizes that children (teens) are not mini adults and don’t think or reason like mini adults, so now we are changing the way they can be sentenced, but we aren’t looking at changing laws to protect them from grown adults who can easily to advantage of their naivety and immaturity. Instead we call these teens “fast” and say that “they know what they are doing” even when biology tells us otherwise.

    Sorry for the rant. As I focus on juvenile law, and see how young and dumb the majority of teenagers are, this topic is very close to my heart. Even when they look like mini adults and may even engage in very adult behavior, they are simply not adults and in fact, they are still reliant on adults to take care of them.
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  10. #295
    Elite Member ConstanceSpry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickiDrea View Post
    I absolutely believe that the age of consent should be raised, just like the age of criminal responsibility should
    be raised and we should not be charging children as adults for crimes
    . The fact is that the prefrontal cortex is immature until approximately age 26. That is the area of the brain that deals with logic, understanding the consequences of one’s actions, forethinking, etc. It’s why kids are more likely to engage in “groupthink” and why they tend to commit crimes in groups and not alone. There is even recent evidence that teens are less safe drivers because of brain development. 16 year olds are children. They are in no way capable of making a logical, reasoned decision to have sex with a man in his 40s and they will always be at risk of manipulation and maltreatment from someone so much older. It’s amazing to me that even the US Supreme Court recognizes that children (teens) are not mini adults and don’t think or reason like mini adults, so now we are changing the way they can be sentenced, but we aren’t looking at changing laws to protect them from grown adults who can easily to advantage of their naivety and immaturity. Instead we call these teens “fast” and say that “they know what they are doing” even when biology tells us otherwise.

    Sorry for the rant. As I focus on juvenile law, and see how young and dumb the majority of teenagers are, this topic is very close to my heart. Even when they look like mini adults and may even engage in very adult behavior, they are simply not adults and in fact, they are still reliant on adults to take care of them.
    Not sure about that one. While most teenagers/kids are stupid and immature, the majority of them manage to not commit serious crimes. A teenager who, for example, robs a convenience store and doesn't hurt anyone is (IMO) much more salvageable than one who shoots the clerk and/or others for kicks. According to fairly new studies psychopaths are born, not made, and can't be cured. They show their true colors as kids and teenagers and it would be dangerous to blame their behavior on immaturity and let them off.
    'I had to get rid of the kid. The cat was allergic.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConstanceSpry View Post
    Not sure about that one. While most teenagers/kids are stupid and immature, the majority of them manage to not commit serious crimes. A teenager who, for example, robs a convenience store and doesn't hurt anyone is (IMO) much more salvageable than one who shoots the clerk and/or others for kicks. According to fairly new studies psychopaths are born, not made, and can't be cured. They show their true colors as kids and teenagers and it would be dangerous to blame their behavior on immaturity and let them off.
    I won’t hijack this conversation but I have spent years representing direct file juveniles (kids charged as adults), and I completely disagree with your comment. DFJ kids are not “psychopaths” by nature of the crime they commit. If you understood the backgrounds of these kids and read their forensic evaluations, I think you would have a very different opinion. Most of them have been involved in the dependent system, have had parental rights terminated, have suffered abuse, witnessed crime, SEVERAL of my kid clients saw family members murdered in front of them, and I will not even get into the school system they are exposed to. In representing dozens of these kids, I have represented ONE who I believe was probably irredeemable. Many DFJ kids who are decertified and sent back to juvenile court do not pick up adult cases and frankly, that’s impressive given that people in their demographics are more likely to end up in the system anyway due to poverty and racism.

    Convicting children as adults means limiting their adult options to NOTHING because they can’t find employment when they get out of adult prison due to their convictions. They recidivize at higher rates and have longer criminal careers because of their age at the time of their first conviction. I can really only justify trying kids for adults for homicide and even then they should have the automatic right to a decertification hearing. I don’t really believe in charging juveniles as adults period but I can envision some rare situations in which it might be appropriate.
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    Elite Member ConstanceSpry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickiDrea View Post
    I won’t hijack this conversation but I have spent years representing direct file juveniles (kids charged as adults), and I completely disagree with your comment. DFJ kids are not “psychopaths” by nature of the crime they commit. If you understood the backgrounds of these kids and read their forensic evaluations, I think you would have a very different opinion. Most of them have been involved in the dependent system, have had parental rights terminated, have suffered abuse, witnessed crime, SEVERAL of my kid clients saw family members murdered in front of them, and I will not even get into the school system they are exposed to. In representing dozens of these kids, I have represented ONE who I believe was probably irredeemable. Many DFJ kids who are decertified and sent back to juvenile court do not pick up adult cases and frankly, that’s impressive given that people in their demographics are more likely to end up in the system anyway due to poverty and racism.

    Convicting children as adults means limiting their adult options to NOTHING because they can’t find employment when they get out of adult prison due to their convictions. They recidivize at higher rates and have longer criminal careers because of their age at the time of their first conviction. I can really only justify trying kids for adults for homicide and even then they should have the automatic right to a decertification hearing. I don’t really believe in charging juveniles as adults period but I can envision some rare situations in which it might be appropriate.
    Yes, homicide was what I referred to in my comment. Kids who kill and have no remorse are dangerous to society, just like adults. I do disagree with sending kids and anyone else to jail or prison for non-violent offenses and saddling them with a criminal record. That helps no one. And the "one size fits all" approach is not the best either. As evidenced by an 18 year old who has sex with his 16 year old girlfriend ending up on the same sex offender's registry as a 40 year old who molests a 5 year old.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConstanceSpry View Post
    Not sure about that one. While most teenagers/kids are stupid and immature, the majority of them manage to not commit serious crimes. A teenager who, for example, robs a convenience store and doesn't hurt anyone is (IMO) much more salvageable than one who shoots the clerk and/or others for kicks. According to fairly new studies psychopaths are born, not made, and can't be cured. They show their true colors as kids and teenagers and it would be dangerous to blame their behavior on immaturity and let them off.
    We are reading different studies then. Also (at least in Europe) less than 1% of the population are psychopaths.

    https://sciencenordic.com/forskningn...opaths/1450492

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    ^^ The low numbers of true psychos are interesting, reading all the awful news stories makes it seem like they are everywhere.
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    but they're not all going to kill you


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