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Thread: Jay Cutler And Wife Kristin Cavallari Come Out As Vaccine Truthers

  1. #151
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy8 View Post
    Really? Everyone I know who has decided to delay or skip vaccines has spent HOURS researching the ingredients, side effects, the diseases they are suppose to protect you from and have read every vaccine insert known to mankind and then they make an INFORMED decision about what they will or will not inject into their child. On the contrary, I can't tell you how many times I have asked vaccinating parents if they received the vaccine insert from their Doctor or even read it before they had their child injected. The answer is usually no, I just got a piece of paper from the nurse (The piece of paper being a one page handout from the CDC). Most of them can't even tell me what diseases their child was just vaccinated against. Yet, the non-vaccinating parents are the ones that are called uneducated, please!

    I also love when the word epidemic is used and there are less than 50 cases. Fear mongering much?
    Yes, everyone that vaccinates is a mindless imbecile that has no idea what vaccines are even being given to their child, but all anti vaxxers are as informed as the scientists at the forefront of current medical research.

    Amazing, isn't it?
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  2. #152
    Elite Member *Kat*'s Avatar
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    Not sure if I should start a separate thread, but since we're on the subject..

    Autism 'begins long before birth'

    By Helen Briggs BBC News Pregnancy: problems in brain development in the womb may underpin autism
    Related Stories




    Scientists say they have new evidence that autism begins in the womb.
    Patchy changes in the developing brain long before birth may cause symptoms of autism spectrum disorder (ASD), research suggests.
    The study, in the New England Journal of Medicine, raises hopes that better understanding of the brain may improve the lives of children with autism.
    It reinforces the need for early identification and treatment, says a University of California team.
    US scientists analysed post-mortem brain tissue of 22 children with and without autism, all between two and 15 years of age.

    They used genetic markers to look at how the outermost part of the brain, the cortex, wired up and formed layers.
    Abnormalities were found in 90% of the children with autism compared with only about 10% of children without.
    The changes were dotted about in brain regions involved in social and emotional communication, and language, long before birth, they say.
    The researchers, from the University of California, San Diego and the Allen Institute for Brain Science in Seattle, say their patchy nature may explain why some toddlers with autism show signs of improvement if treated early enough.
    They think the plastic infant brain may have a chance of rewiring itself to compensate.
    "The finding that these defects occur in patches rather than across the entirety of cortex gives hope as well as insight about the nature of autism," said Prof Eric Courchesne, a neuroscientist at the University of California San Diego.

    Dr Thomas Insel, director of the National Institute of Mental Health, said: "If this new report of disorganised architecture in the brains of some children with autism is replicated, we can presume this reflects a process occurring long before birth.
    "This reinforces the importance of early identification and intervention."
    Devastating impact Carol Povey, director of the National Autistic Society Centre for Autism, said the study shed light on a complex and often misunderstood disability.
    "Better understanding of the early brain development of children with autism could help us find new and more effective ways to support the estimated 700,000 people living with the condition across the UK," she said.
    "Autism can have a profound and devastating impact but the right support can make a huge difference."


    BBC News - Autism 'begins long before birth'
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  3. #153
    Elite Member MsDark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy8 View Post
    Yep, almost every flu vaccine insert (I only copied the Fluvarin one) says the following language: "Safety and effectiveness of FLUVIRINŽ have not been established in pregnant women, nursing mothers or children less than 4 years of age."
    For legal reasons, this is a requirement. That someone pregnant or nursing would rather risk getting the flu than take a shot is irresponsible to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Yes, everyone that vaccinates is a mindless imbecile that has no idea what vaccines are even being given to their child, but all anti vaxxers are as informed as the scientists at the forefront of current medical research.

    Amazing, isn't it?
    Generalize much? Pretty sure MY statement was EVERYONE I know and EVERYONE I have talked to. I don't choose to make blanket statements about people because I don't know their reasoning behind their choices. Scientists at the forefront of research? Really? If you follow the $$$ trail 9 out of 10xs said research is funded by pharmaceuticals who stand to profit. Vaccines are billion dollar industry. Paul Offit comes to mind.

    I generally never get into pro/no vax debates because I feel everyone has a right to their opinion, but I am so sick of hearing the lame comments over and over that people don't vax because of a "celebrity" or Autism fears. There are plenty of other reasons including: medical, issues with aborted fetal cells being used, mercury (and yes it's still in there if you read the vaccine insert from the manuf), aluminum, no long term trials (hello HPV vax). Plus, the amount of vaccines given to a child under 5 now is up to 40 something beginning at a few hours old. Ridiculous.

    How many adults do you know that know their vaccine immunity status? No Doctor I know every tests titers/immunity unless you are pregnant. There are plenty of people roaming around with no immunity to Measles, etc because they don't take the time to actually find out. It's always easier to just blame the parents who chose to delay or skip vaccines all together isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Novice View Post
    Yeah, because the medical definition is " The occurrence of more cases of a disease than would be expected in a community or region during a given time period."
    Which given that measels is an innocuble disease should be around 50.
    In the UK we have gone from that number of cases (1998) to 2030 last year, so yeah, that is an epidemic.


    And since you "read everything" you could read the multiquote instructions..... Lol.
    I was talking about the 21 in Orange County, CA that is being called an "epidemic"

    I will agree with the multiquote. I had already posted once so I didn't fell like editing.

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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    when these anti vaxxer crowd start spewing all i hear is 'the world is flat'........................
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    it's like, they're so dumb they can't even get the conspiracy theory right about big pharma making tons off the shots.....when any thinking person knows there's way more money to be made in the drugs that could be used to treat the numerous complications that come from these diseases.......



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    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsDark View Post
    For legal reasons, this is a requirement. That someone pregnant or nursing would rather risk getting the flu than take a shot is irresponsible to me.
    Yeah, pregnant women are rarely going to have drugs tested on them.
    Quote Originally Posted by funky_chicken View Post
    what's that thing about milk? never heard of that before! might explain why I'm that tall. hmmmm!
    Further info on importing food into the EU - its a UK site but most of it is EU regs. https://www.gov.uk/food-safety-as-a-...exporting-food
    Quote Originally Posted by happy8 View Post
    Generalize much? Pretty sure MY statement was EVERYONE I know and EVERYONE I have talked to. I don't choose to make blanket statements about people because I don't know their reasoning behind their choices. Scientists at the forefront of research? Really? If you follow the $$$ trail 9 out of 10xs said research is funded by pharmaceuticals who stand to profit. Vaccines are billion dollar industry. Paul Offit comes to mind.

    I generally never get into pro/no vax debates because I feel everyone has a right to their opinion, but I am so sick of hearing the lame comments over and over that people don't vax because of a "celebrity" or Autism fears. There are plenty of other reasons including: medical, issues with aborted fetal cells being used, mercury (and yes it's still in there if you read the vaccine insert from the manuf), aluminum, no long term trials (hello HPV vax). Plus, the amount of vaccines given to a child under 5 now is up to 40 something beginning at a few hours old. Ridiculous.
    For those that don't know Thiomersal is an organomercury compound, a quick search of the web suggests that Thiomersal is approx 43%-50% mercury.

    From the CDC website CDC - Thimerosal and 2013-2014 Seasonal Flu Vaccines | Seasonal Influenza (Flu) or Thimerosal in Vaccines
    Is thimerosal being used in other vaccines?

    Since 2001, no new vaccine licensed by FDA for use in children has contained thimerosal as a preservative, and all vaccines routinely recommended by CDC for children younger than 6 years of age have been thimerosal-free, or contain only trace amounts of thimerosal, except for multi-dose formulations of influenza vaccine. The most recent and rigorous scientific research does not support the argument that thimerosal-containing vaccines are harmful. However, CDC and FDA continually evaluate new scientific information about the safety of vaccines.

    Is thimerosal in vaccines safe?

    Yes. There is a large body of scientific evidence on the safety of thimerosal. Data from several studies show the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines do not cause harm, and are only associated with minor local injection site reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site.
    Three U.S. health agencies (The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and the National Institutes of Health (NIH)) have reviewed the published research on thimerosal and found it to be a safe product to use in vaccines. Three independent organizations [The National Academy of Sciences’ Institute of Medicine, Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP)] reviewed the published research and also found thimerosal to be a safe product to use in vaccines. The medical community supports the use of thimerosal in influenza vaccines to protect against potential bacterial contamination of multi-dose vials.
    So the CDC, FDA & NIH are that these preservative is safe, as do The National Academy of Sciences’ Institute of Medicine, Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), plus it is only present in Flu vaccines....

    To add to the context an injection is 0.5 milliliters - I found a list of ingredients and the reasons for their inclusion - although this is a UK list, it pertains to the current vaccine situation & specifically mentions North America.
    CDC info is here:- CDC - Vaccine Ingredients - Making the Vaccine Decision - Parents - Vaccines
    Vaccine Ingredients

    Most injected vaccines contain 0.5 millilitres, in other words a few drops. Almost all of this is water. Other ingredients weigh just a few milligrams (thousandths of a gram). To give some context, one paracetamol tablet weighs 500 milligrams. The 'active ingredients' in the vaccine are present in even smaller quantities - a few micrograms (millionths of a gram).
    In addition to the main ‘active ingredient’ (a virus, bacterium, or a substance derived from these), vaccines may contain:


    Most vaccines now do not contain the preservative thiomersal (also called thimerosal).

    Vaccine ingredients can look scary because we are not used to seeing them listed in products intended for use in humans, but this does not mean they are dangerous. For example, people may think of formaldehyde as a chemical used to preserve dead bodies, and do not know that it is also found naturally in the bloodstream.
    A complete list of ingredients can be found on the Patient Information Leaflet and Summary of Product Characteristics sheet for each vaccine. See the list on our links page.
    Aluminium

    Aluminium is used in vaccines in the form of salts such as aluminium hydroxide, aluminium phosphate, and potassium aluminium sulphate. Aluminium salts are an important component of vaccines since they act as adjuvants, strengthening and lengthening the immune response to the vaccine.
    Aluminium can be harmful in large quantities. However, the amount of aluminium present in vaccines is very small (less than 2 milligrams of the salts, and less than a milligram of actual aluminium). Although vaccination does result in a temporary increase in the amount of aluminium in the body of infants, this is not a lasting effect, since the body gets rid of most of the aluminium in just a few days. There is no evidence that this causes any risk to babies and children. Aluminium is also found naturally in breast milk, formula milk, some foods and drinking water, and small amounts accumulate in children’s bodies as a result.
    It is now thought unlikely that there is a relationship between aluminium and Alzheimer’s disease. There is currently no evidence to suggest that aluminium exposure increases the risk of dementia.
    Thiomersal (also called Thimerosal)

    Thiomersal is a mercury compound used as an antiseptic and antifungal agent. It is not found in any of the childhood vaccines routinely used in the UK, but is still widely used outside of Europe and America in vaccines produced in the cheaper multi-dose format. Fluvirin, one of the adult flu vaccines used in the UK in 2013-2014, may contain traces of thiomersal left over from the manufacturing process.
    The World Health Organization (WHO) has stated that there is no evidence of risk from thiomersal in vaccines. Read the full WHO statement on thiomersal in vaccines.
    Gelatin

    Gelatin derived from pigs is used in certain vaccines to protect the viruses against the effects of temperature. The only vaccines containing gelatin in the UK routine schedule are the MMR vaccine and the nasal flu vaccine (Fluenz).
    Human Serum Albumin

    Human serum albumin, derived from human blood, is used as a protein stabilizer in the MMR vaccine (0.3mg/dose). It is derived from screened donors, and the manufacturing process eliminates any risk of transmitting viruses. No viral diseases have ever been associated with the use of human serum albumin.
    Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde is an organic compound used in the production of some vaccines. It is used to inactivate poliovirus, HepB antigen, and diphtheria and tetanus toxins. It is possible that tiny traces may remain in the HepB vaccine, 5-in-1 DTaP/IPV/Hib, pre-school booster 4-in-1 DTaP/IPV, and teenage booster Td/IPV vaccines. The human body produces formaldehyde itself as part of the metabolism process. The amount of natural formaldehyde in a 2-month-old infant’s blood (around 1.1 milligrams) is ten times greater than the amount found in any vaccine (less than 0.1 milligrams).
    Antibiotics

    Antibiotics are used during the manufacturing process of some vaccines to prevent bacterial contamination. However, antibiotics which have been associated with allergic reactions (such as penicillins, cephalosporins and sulphonamides) are not used in vaccines.
    Egg Proteins

    Around 1 in 20 people are allergic to egg, and egg allergy is much more common in children than in adults. There are two vaccines in the current UK schedule which may contain egg proteins:

    • The MMR vaccine: the measles and mumps viruses are grown on a culture which contains chick embryo cells. There is only a tiny amount of residual egg protein found in the MMR vaccine - approximately 40 picograms (that is 0.000 000 000 04g). This is not enough to cause allergic reactions, and children with severe egg allergies can safely receive the MMR.
    • The nasal flu vaccine (Fluenz): the flu virus is grown on fertilised hens' eggs and the vaccine may contain residues of the egg proteins. At the moment there are no data on the use of Fluenz in children with an egg allergy. They should therefore be given an alternative vaccine, either an egg-free inactivated flu vaccine (if available) or, following specialist medical advice, a vaccine with a very low albumin content.

    Most of the annual flu vaccines for adults also contain egg proteins, as the virus is often grown on fertilised hens’ eggs. Other non-routine vaccines, such as yellow fever vaccine, may also contain egg proteins. Those with egg allergy should always ask about egg protein content before receiving a vaccine.
    Yeast Proteins

    Yeast is not used in the production of any of the vaccines used in the UK routine schedule, except for the Gardasil HPV vaccine. UK Department of Health advice is that Gardasil can be given to yeast-allergy sufferers because the final vaccine product does not contain any yeast.
    A tiny quantity of yeast protein may remain in Hepatitis B vaccines, though there is no evidence that this can cause allergic reactions.
    Human Cell-lines

    Cell culture is the process by which cells derived from living organisms are grown and reproduced in a controlled laboratory environment. In the manufacture of some vaccines, such as the MMR, cultures containing human cell-lines are used to grow a virus. This is because the virus is specific to humans and will not grow in any other medium. The cell-line used in the production of the rubella element of the MMR is grown on a cell culture called WI-38, while the shingles vaccine (Zostavax) is grown on MRC-5. These cultures originated in lung cells taken from two different aborted foetus in the 1960s (the foetuses were not aborted for this purpose). None of the original cells remain in the culture. It is possible that traces of the cell-culture may remain in the vaccines.
    Some people have concerns about using a vaccine produced using foetal tissue. The Vatican’s position on the matter is that ‘it is acceptable to use vaccines developed from abortions that were carried out decades ago, because immunizations play a vital role in protecting life by preventing illness and death’ (Statement by the Pontifical Academy for Life, 2005).

    Animal Cell-lines

    Cell culture is the process by which cells derived from living organisms are grown and reproduced in a controlled laboratory environment. Cultures containing animal cell-lines are used for growing viruses for use in the 5-in-1 vaccines, Pre-school and Teenage boosters, MMR vaccines, Nasal flu vaccine and Rotavirus vaccine. The polio virus element of the 5-in-1 vaccine is grown on Vero cells, that is a cell-line originally derived from the kidney of the African green monkey. The measles and mumps elements of the MMR are grown on a culture derived from cells taken from a chick embryo. These facts are sometimes distorted by anti-vaccine campaigners, in order to suggest that vaccines are a kind of witch’s potion, or that there is a risk that animal disease may be transmitted by vaccines

    An article from 2003 giving further detailed information on vaccine ingredients can be found here. Vaccine Ingredients
    This is provided by Oxford University, a world renown university. It maybe funded (in whole or partially) by pharmaceutic companies, however its name and reputation is worth much, much more than this funding ever would and therefore the results of clinical trial & research err on the side of scientific analysis not advertising for the pharmaceuticals.
    More info is here:- NIHR Oxford Biomedical Research Centre | Enabling translational research through partnership "the Oxford Biomedical Research Centre, a partnership between the University of Oxford and Oxford University Hospitals, funded by the National Institute for Health Research." NIHR is a NHS organisation.
    Is the WHO also funded by the pharmaceutical companies?
    And I'm not seeing "aborted fetal cells" currently used in vaccines, even if the vaccine originally used them.

    Institute of Medicine of the National Academies Childhood Immunization Schedule and Safety: Stakeholder Concerns, Scientific Evidence, and Future Studies - Institute of Medicine
    "This report is the most comprehensive examination of the immunization schedule to date. The IOM committee uncovered no evidence of major safety concerns associated with adherence to the childhood immunization schedule. Should signals arise that there may be need for investigation, however, the report offers a framework for conducting safety research using existing or new data collection systems."

    I am not seeing the issues given in your post in 5 mins research on the WWW - however, I (obviously?) have a differing opinion of the data sources in that I think that Govt Resources (CDC, WHO, OIE) are to be trusted in certain areas.
    If I were a concerned parent, I would be asking for individual shots instead of combined ones, as I strongly think, with a little analytical research that the risk of not vaccinating is more than vaccinating. However, I work in a disease control related environment so am used to evaluating risk factors that others may not be used to.

    So, if the child gets measles....

    Measles

    Fact sheet N°286
    Updated February 2014
    Key facts

    Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
    In 2012, there were 122 000 measles deaths globally – about 330 deaths every day or 14 deaths every hour.
    Measles vaccination resulted in a 78% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2012 worldwide.
    In 2012, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 72% in 2000.
    Since 2000, more than 1 billion children in high risk countries were vaccinated against the disease through mass vaccination campaigns ― about 145 million of them in 2012.

    Measles is a highly contagious, serious disease caused by a virus. In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year.

    It remains one of the leading causes of death among young children globally, despite the availability of a safe and effective vaccine. Approximately 122 000 people died from measles in 2012 – mostly children under the age of five.
    Most measles-related deaths are caused by complications associated with the disease. Complications are more common in children under the age of five, or adults over the age of 20. The most serious complications include blindness, encephalitis (an infection that causes brain swelling), severe diarrhoea and related dehydration, ear infections, or severe respiratory infections such as pneumonia. As high as 10% of measles cases result in death among populations with high levels of malnutrition and a lack of adequate health care. Women infected while pregnant are also at risk of severe complications and the pregnancy may end in miscarriage or preterm delivery. People who recover from measles are immune for the rest of their lives.
    Obviously these figures include poor countires that are lucky if they can afford to vaccinate.





    Quote Originally Posted by happy8 View Post
    How many adults do you know that know their vaccine immunity status? No Doctor I know every tests titers/immunity unless you are pregnant. There are plenty of people roaming around with no immunity to Measles, etc because they don't take the time to actually find out.

    *raises hand* But you knew I was going to say that don't you? Since I have suppressed immunity & currently have pneumonia *coughs all over thread*




    Quote Originally Posted by happy8 View Post
    I was talking about the 21 in Orange County, CA that is being called an "epidemic"
    Oh! You mean this outbreak..... Where the figures have gone from 7 to 21 confirmed cases in two weeks?

    So given that the definition of epidemic is :-
    Quote Originally Posted by Novice View Post
    Yeah, because the medical definition is " The occurrence of more cases of a disease than would be expected in a community or region during a given time period."
    And that last year there were three cases, and now there are 32 confirmed cases..... So that is 29 more cases than is expected in the community or eight times more cases? That is an epidemic.
    O.C. now has largest measles outbreak in California

    Measles

    An elementary school student in Garden Grove gets an immunization shot for measles. There are now 21 confirmed measles cases in Orange County, the highest in any California county. (Don Kelsen / Los Angeles Times / June 27, 2006)
    By Anh Do

    March 26, 2014, 5:05 p.m.

    Orange County health officials met in an emergency session this week after the latest measles tally showed the number of cases in the county had rocketed in the past few weeks.

    There are now 21 confirmed cases of measles in Orange County, the most of any county in California, health officials said.

    The number jumped upward from seven cases less than two weeks ago.

    Measles cases are up across the state and rose to 32 cases by March 14, far higher than the three reported cases from the previous year. At the time, Los Angeles County led the way with 10 cases.

    Healthcare officials in Orange County warned residents to review their vaccination history and to monitor themselves for illness.

    Measles is a highly contagious and potentially severe disease, causing fever, rash, cough and red, watery eyes. Officials say immunization is the best defense.

    It spreads very easily by air and by direct contact with an infected person, and it is contagious from about four days before the rash appears through four days after it appears.

    O.C. now has largest measles outbreak in California - latimes.com
    Sidebar - in an area of 2,455.3 km2 they now have half the number of cases in two weeks, that would have been expected in the UK in one year and area of 243,610 km2. Just s thought.
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    Elite Member missbazilb's Avatar
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    In the Fraser Valley, there were two cases in 2012, twelve cases in 2013, and 228 cases in 2014. A nineteen-fold increase. That's within a total population of just over 200,000 people. Orange County has a population of 3.09 million, and they have 32 cases. If 32 cases among 3 million people is cause for concern, then 228 in 200,000 is an epidemic. When will people realize that these illnesses are serious? It's just ridiculous.
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    The screeching 'ABORTED FETAL CELLS!!!' is always a giveaway that someone doesn't really understand cellular lines, etc. But it sure does scare people, which is the whole thing behind this movement- to spread ignorance and fear through misinformation.



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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    The screeching 'ABORTED FETAL CELLS!!!' is always a giveaway that someone doesn't really understand cellular lines, etc. But it sure does scare people, which is the whole thing behind this movement- to spread ignorance and fear through misinformation.
    Even the Pope thinks that its ok....... but yeah, you probably posted this before you aw my megapost where I tried to balance addressing with info and readablilty (no doubt I failed!).
    Here we go
    Cell culture is the process by which cells derived from living organisms are grown and reproduced in a controlled laboratory environment. In the manufacture of some vaccines, such as the MMR, cultures containing human cell-lines are used to grow a virus. This is because the virus is specific to humans and will not grow in any other medium. The cell-line used in the production of the rubella element of the MMR is grown on a cell culture called WI-38, while the shingles vaccine (Zostavax) is grown on MRC-5. These cultures originated in lung cells taken from two different aborted foetus in the 1960s (the foetuses were not aborted for this purpose). None of the original cells remain in the culture. It is possible that traces of the cell-culture may remain in the vaccines.
    Some people have concerns about using a vaccine produced using foetal tissue. The Vatican’s position on the matter is that ‘it is acceptable to use vaccines developed from abortions that were carried out decades ago, because immunizations play a vital role in protecting life by preventing illness and death’
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    i just read today that of all five current and confirmed cases of measles involving children in orange county, all five kids were unvaccinated.

    also, for antivaxxers who still believe that vaccines cause autism? how come they don't address the tons of cases of autistic unvaccinated kids; it's not like they're exactly enigmas.
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    Perhaps some of these 'anti-vax' types should Google images of people dying of polio, TB, typhoid, measles etc just so they can get themselves a little reality check. The past couple generations haven't had to live through periods where they saw these horrific diseases killing en masse.

    I cannot stand these "I just had a baby and *poof* I now know more than doctors and the medical community as a whole". I aggravates me to no end. Years and years of pain-staking medical research for the betterment of society, but "meh" what would they know.

    My SIL is one of the aforementioned - I have to restrain myself from slapping her. But then she is a whole other breed of crazy who doesn't believe in schooling, religion or discipline for children either. Did I mention how well that is working out for her kid? Yeah... not.

    Evolution is lost on her.



    Anyway, enough of my rant. Thanks Modern Medicine - you're freaking AWESOME!
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    Twenty-one cases of measles is an epidemic considering it was all but wiped out in the US until the vaccine scare was caused by Dr. Wakefield in the UK, who has now admitted he lied. All of the "vaccine truthers" conveniently forget about the man who brought this "truth" to them is a fraud by his own admission. This man single-handedly set medicine back decades.

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    Wonder how the anti-vax, because it causes autism, people are feeling about the new study that believes autism begins in the 2nd trimester of pregnancy.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014...ts-in-the-womb
    Last edited by sluce; April 2nd, 2014 at 01:45 AM.
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    oh, actual science doesn't concern them at all.
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