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Thread: Hell freezes over. Oh, and George Clooney is engaged.

  1. #331
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellatheball View Post
    I will give give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't mean that to be as patronizing as it sounds.
    You can call it patronising but it really doesn't change the fact that it's a patriarchal tradition, and if it weren't, you'd hear about more men taking their wives' names. Instead of blaming the messenger, why not tell me why you think it's not a sexist, patriarchal tradition?


    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    If its about cohesiveness men can take the woman's name. It would convey the same sense of 'family'. But they generally don't. hmmmm...i wonder why?
    You said it before I could...
    Same if you don't like your last name, or hate your father or whatever, why wait until you get married so you can take on another man's name?

    Just because most women do it (at least in the US that's still the case), doesn't remove the implications behind the tradition. I think that most women do it without really thinking about it, it's almost a given that it's what you do after getting married and I think no one really questions the reasons behind it and accepts it as the cultural norm.

    Personally, I just can't see it as anything other than defending a patriarchal tradition in which the man is the 'head' of the household and whose children and wife all bear his name, and I've yet to hear an argument that dispels that notion. I understand the attachment to tradition but i guess my point is, traditions don't come out of nowhere and there is a lot of meaning behind them that i think a lot of the time doesn't get acknowledged.
    Last edited by sputnik; October 14th, 2014 at 09:18 PM.
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  2. #332
    Elite Member Bellatheball's Avatar
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    Of course. How absurd of me. We should never take our husband's names. As you say, that honors our patriarchal society. We should all just keep on using our fathers names. Makes perfect sense. Point well taken. I bow to your critical thinking skills.
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  3. #333
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    well in my case i have both my father's and my mother's names but my point is, it's all connected and while you may be given your father's name at birth, if you choose not to take your husband's name when you get married, and give your children both your last names, then in the next generation you're no longer perpetuating the tradition.

    what you're saying is that since a woman already has her father's last name, that's reason enough not to ever change a tradition rooted in patriarchal norms.

    but with all that deflecting, you still haven't answered my question: why do you believe it's not a sexist tradition?
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  4. #334
    Elite Member *Kat*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellatheball View Post
    Of course. How absurd of me. We should never take our husband's names. As you say, that honors our patriarchal society. We should all just keep on using our fathers names. Makes perfect sense. Point well taken. I bow to your critical thinking skills.
    I don't think Sput is saying women shouldn't take their husband's last name. She's just saying the tradition has its roots in a patriarchal society. It's a mostly harmless tradition now, but it wasn't always the case when taking on your husband's last name meant you became your husband's property legally. It's a personal choice now, yes. But admitting that its origin was sexist doesn't mean feminism is being forced on you.

  5. #335
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    i'm saying that women should be aware of the origins of a tradition before deciding to carry it on. that's all. that said, i'm not certain that it's an entirely harmless tradition. obviously it's not in the same league as arranged marriages and female genital mutilation or anything like that but there's something about it that screams 'traditional gender roles' - that women have to be the ones to change their last name in order for the family to all have the same name, women have to wait for a man to propose, even though nowadays in most couples both partners work and there's no reason to wait for a guy to be ready to 'take on' the 'burden' of a wife, etc.

    not to get too 2nd wave-ish on you all or anything. of course if you like the tradition and want to conform to it, it's your choice to follow it i'm just saying that like with everything else, there's meaning behind it.

    ask your husbands/boyfriends if they would change their last names to yours, if it's such an innocent tradition and there's no meaning behind it...
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  6. #336
    Elite Member *Kat*'s Avatar
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    ^You're right. I wasn't thinking about all those countries in the world where it isn't a choice but is still a compulsion. So it's not entirely harmless.
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Anyone can call themselves by whatever name pleases them, but the 'tradition' of taking the husbands name dates to when we were property. Like many traditions, it comes from something less than pleasant.
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  8. #338
    Silver Member South Lake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CornFlakegrl View Post
    I wonder if Angelina is quickly strategizing to up her game. Aman is what Angelina aspires to be, no? Smart, pedigreed, involved at high political levels in international affairs and now, all the access fame can afford.
    I thought exactly this too. I also think Brad & Angie rushed out their wedding first (after all these years!) because they wanted to make headlines before George & Amal. Any why weren't Brad & Angie at George's wedding anyway??
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  9. #339
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    I really don't care either way but I think that it is really silly how people make a big deal over their last name, as if that is a sole means of identity. People derive identity and their sense of self from within, not their last names. I'm not married but if I were, I would change my last name. I think a lot of women think that it is not only practical but romantic as well.
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  10. #340
    Elite Member yanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    ask your husbands/boyfriends if they would change their last names to yours, if it's such an innocent tradition and there's no meaning behind it...
    The SIL's husband has taken her last name too after the wedding, well one of them since she has both parents' last names. I think it is not that unheard of in Norway and other Scandinavian countries. I found out when I told him that he had his wife's surname on some boat tickets I got them because I couldn't remember his own last name. I jokingly apologised but then I got a lecture about it and how it's totally normal to have your wife's surname and he's proud of it.

  11. #341
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar View Post
    I really don't care either way but I think that it is really silly how people make a big deal over their last name, as if that is a sole means of identity. People derive identity and their sense of self from within, not their last names.
    Then why don't american men change theirs to their wife's when they marry? Its just a name. Whats the big deal?
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  12. #342
    Elite Member Brah's Avatar
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    Sputnik and witchcurlgirl said it better than I could, I agree. It's her choice to take his name, but the root of it is unpleasant and it does leave a bit of a sour taste in my mouth that she took his name. A couple of my friends/family members have gotten married and taken their husbands' names, and while it's their choice it still feels like the expected thing to do--and to just have that expectation hanging over your head speaks to control, and I don't like control based upon gender. It doesn't feel like a force of control for most women who do it, but like others said, that's what it's born from so I still get that feeling when it happens.

    Personally, I like my name. My birth certificate is hyphenated but it sounds so ugly that way so I just go with my dad's last name (my name is now very Irish in origin). But if I were to marry I wouldn't take the man's last name (probably, I can't know for 100% sure, maybe he'd have a fantastic last name that I couldn't resist), just because I like my name and it's my identity. I've written it, looked at it, answered to it, and read it my whole life. That's just me, the idea of suddenly being known by a different moniker that only chance brought me would feel completely odd. It'd be like getting married then wearing a purple wig everyday thereafter--eventually I'd have to get used to it, but it'd take a lot of time for it to become normal.
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  13. #343
    czb
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    i'll also add that after i was engaged and people asked me if i was going to change my last name, i said No, but the most 'huhs' i got were from women. pretty neg reaction from most. and oddly enough, one of my male colleagues who i would ordinarily consider pretty traditional, asked me if i was going to change or hyphenate my last name. i said No, and he said 'good, it's pretty annoying, especially the hyphenates'. *shrugs*

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    In my original ethnic group, it was very common to call a woman by her original last name, regardless of whether the name was legally changed by marriage. I kept my name for professional reasons when I married-my degrees and contacts were all acquired before I married. Socially, I could have cared less and used both. My husband didn't care but used to laugh because both our names were difficult to spell. Hyphenating was totally out of the question.

  15. #345
    Elite Member Belt Up's Avatar
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    Wonder if the intelligent, fiercely independent human right's lawyer would have been so quick to change her name if she hadn't married a world famous Hollywood actor? Maybe she thinks using such a well known name would open more doors?

    Anyway, she'll always be plain old Anal Aladdin to me
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