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Thread: Gary Glitter charged with eight sex offenses

  1. #16
    Elite Member cheray's Avatar
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    Sometimes people just cant speak up. They cannot bear to rehash the memory of it so they smother it and try to forget till they realize years on that their lives are shadowed by what happened and the knowledge that someone got away with doing something terrible while they live with the guilt. That's when they finally speak up about it.
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    Elite Member Kittylady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    Lesson, if you are the victim of sexual assault or molestation tell someone NOW. Lord knows there's enough people out there willing to listen these days. Saying you're "too scared" isn't good enough. Sorry.
    Part of the problem is that victims still feel very intimidated, by the person they are accusing, by the police process, by the mauling they think they'll get from lawyers if it makes it to Court and that can only be a thousand times worse if the person they are accusing has some clout or celebrity.

    Young women went to the police after encounters with Savile and were sent away and warned not to try and take it further, the young men and boys who were victimised by the MP Cyril Smith got the same treatment. Although both of those evil bastards are dead I think that their victims finally having a say is a good thing because hopefully others who have been more recently victimised will feel that they CAN speak up and have a chance of being heard when someone in a position of power abuses them.
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  3. #18
    Silver Member SugarVenom's Avatar
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    IDK why people care about the age of the perpetrator in these types of cases. If Rolf Harris is guilty, he's guilty. A woman accused Harris of sexually assaulting her when she was 13. He claims the sex was consensual and she was 18; he was in his 40s and married. The article didn't say if he groped or raped her, but if she really was 13 and that really did happen, it is NEVER OK to grope a 13 y/o, in my book. Especially considering he was in his mid-40s at the time and plenty old enough to know better.

    It is a bit suspicious to me when alleged sex offenders spend a lot of alone time with kids or teens (not blood relatives) of the sex they are attracted to. Maybe they're working together, maybe it's innocent... maybe it's not... but it is something that should be looked into. It is a shame that these women didn't come forward years ago, but better late than never.

  4. #19
    A*O
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    Agree but I take the unpopular view that there are degrees of sexual "assault". Rape is a hideous ordeal and I understand how traumatised and damaged it's victims are. Being touched up by a dirty old man doesn't fall into the same category. It's happened to me and it would never have occurred to me to report it, not through fear or intimidation, but because I just shrugged it off. Maybe I'm more resilient or battle hardened than others (and I was quite young at the time) or maybe I can be accused of enabling such behaviour.

    The Jimmy Savile (a genuine evil pervert) investigation seems to have opened the floodgates of other celebs being accused of similar crimes many years ago. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. The problem as explained above is that after such a long time it's almost impossible to establish the reliable facts on both sides. If I was a juror listening to testimony of events that happened 40 years ago I'd have Reasonable Doubt and therefore couldn't convict.

    There was a time when a woman making a formal complaint about rape faced an uphill battle to be believed from the get go so naturally they often didn't put themselves through that ordeal. Now it seems that any such accuser is automatically believed until the accused can prove he/she is innocent; a complete reversal of the fundamental criminal justice principle of the accused being Innocent Until Proved Guilty. It bothers me that accusers in this type of case are given the benefit of anonymity before, during and after the trial while the accused is named and shamed before the trial even begins. Even if they are found to be innocent their reputation and integrity is irredeemably destroyed and if that person happens to be an entertainer they can wave goodbye to that career forever.

    I guess I'm saying there should be an even playing field and as things stand there isn't. Flame away.
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  5. #20
    Elite Member manningmsj's Avatar
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    ^^^^ I see your point about earlier reporting, but I think it is different if the victims were only children during the abuse. Some of them may not have even been able to comprehend what happened to them or recognize that it was wrong, especially if their abuser was a "grown-up" telling them to keep quiet or that the behavior was okay. It's possible that by the time they were old enough to know better, they had already suppressed the memories. I think this is a trend that will change in the future, as more and more cases like this come to light and children begin to be educated on what is and is not acceptable conduct. But thirty or forty years ago, these kids probably didn't know how to handle what happened to them and may only now be starting to process it. I'm not sure it's fair to deny them justice in that case. The burden of proof needs to be met, no matter how impossible it may seem, but I can't get on board with a statue that would deny real victims their right to be heard. Maybe one day when the stigma surrounding rape is an ancient memory, but not when so many of those affected are still living in fear.
    Last edited by manningmsj; June 7th, 2014 at 09:44 PM.
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  6. #21
    A*O
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    By waiting so long to report abuse the victims are potentially denying themselves justice as evidence becomes blurry.
    If all the women in this place were laid end to end, I wouldn’t be surprised - Dorothy Parker

  7. #22
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post

    There was a time when a woman making a formal complaint about rape faced an uphill battle to be believed from the get go so naturally they often didn't put themselves through that ordeal. Now it seems that any such accuser is automatically believed until the accused can prove he/she is innocent; a complete reversal of the fundamental criminal justice principle of the accused being Innocent Until Proved Guilty. It bothers me that accusers in this type of case are given the benefit of anonymity before, during and after the trial while the accused is named and shamed before the trial even begins. Even if they are found to be innocent their reputation and integrity is irredeemably destroyed and if that person happens to be an entertainer they can wave goodbye to that career forever.

    I guess I'm saying there should be an even playing field and as things stand there isn't. Flame away.
    it's not about flaming, it's about facts. you may feel that these days victims face less of an uphill battle after accusing their rapists, but you would be wrong. rapes and sexual abuse are not only horribly underreported, in cases where they are reported, very few make it to trial and then even less of those end in conviction. conviction rapes for rape are much lower than for other crimes. not because they were false accusations (actually very rare, thankfully) but because it's extremely difficult to prove a rape in the absence of physical evidence. and victims still face police officers unwilling to listen, or who blame the victim, or who don't take accusations seriously.

    that said, i still think cases should have statutes of limitation, and i also think burdens of proof have to be met. and i also think victims have to come forward as soon as possible but that's only going to happen if the justice system is better equipped to handle abuse cases, and treats victims a lot better than is currently the case.
    Last edited by sputnik; June 8th, 2014 at 12:11 AM.
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  8. #23
    A*O
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    I'm in furious agreement with you sput. These crimes are under reported by genuine victims for all the reasons you cite and it's not right. But just as many are, I suspect, over reported by women with dubious motives, especially in the case of celebrity perps with deep pockets. I think it's only fair to acknowledge this kind of thing does happen sometimes and with catastrophic consequences in the case of entertainers who rely on public goodwill and support to continue with their careers after they are cleared of any wrongdoing by a jury. Mud sticks.

    I guess the old lawyer in me wants to see due process, not trial by media. But yeah, if the bastard did do it then cut his dick off.
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  9. #24
    Elite Member manningmsj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    By waiting so long to report abuse the victims are potentially denying themselves justice as evidence becomes blurry.
    Agreed, but I still think a statute for sexual abuse against a minor can be a dangerous thing. Like in the case of Savile where after his death there were literally hundreds of victims coming forward with allegations. It speaks to the power that an abuser can wield over his victims that so many are afraid to come forward for years. And in cases like Jerry Sandusky, where one man was actually unable to file suit because he missed the cutoff by a mere nine months, a statute only preserves that power. (Side note: If the Sandusky scandal had happened in Vermont, only about half of the assaults would have been admissable) I think one has to consider that these are not one or two people keeping these secrets for years, but a great many. Thousands of victims unable to seek justice against the priests who raped them, the entertainers who molested them, the coaches who abused them, etc. Whatever's kept them from coming forward is obviously complex enough to warrant some leniency in how long we are willing to prosecute child molestors.
    My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.- Douglas Adams

  10. #25
    A*O
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    Savile's case is slightly unusual because as a self-proclaimed and cherished Living National Treasure he was able to rely on his almost saintly reputation to protect him from investigation. In his case I can totally see how futile it would have been for his victims to report him. Nobody would have believed them and it was only after his death that his influence waned to the point the accusations could be properly investigated.
    If all the women in this place were laid end to end, I wouldn’t be surprised - Dorothy Parker

  11. #26
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    I heard.a lot of reporting of the Role Harris case, and one of his accusers was the friend of his daughter. He said in court that he was "flattered" that when at 13 or so she "flirted" with him, and apparently her flashing a bit of ankle & knee sent him over the edge...
    I have no sympathy after hearing that, however I've just found the defences cross-queationing of that victim....
    A woman who says Rolf Harris abused her from when she was a teenager has denied they had a consensual relationship and that she made up the allegations.

    Under cross-examination at Southwark Crown Court, the woman denied defence claims that "sexual chemistry" had developed between herself and the TV entertainer by the time she was 18.

    She also denied "flirting" with Mr Harris - a childhood friend's father.

    Mr Harris, 84, denies 12 charges of indecent assault against four girls.

    'Absolve from blame'

    The Australian artist is accused of indecently assaulting four girls, aged between seven or eight and 19, from 1968 to 1986.

    Seven of the 12 counts relate to the woman, who was a childhood friend of Bindi Harris.

    Sonia Woodley QC, defence counsel, said the woman made up the allegations about Mr Harris abusing her to avoid being blamed for their consensual affair.

    "What you did was to try and absolve yourself from blame and say that Rolf Harris had abused you, when in fact you knew perfectly well that you had a consensual relationship with him," said Ms Woodley.

    "Once you had told that story you had to stick with it, didn't you?"

    Rolf Harris court sketch
    Southwark Crown Court heard claims Mr Harris first abused the witness while on holiday in 1978
    The woman replied: "No,".

    She said that she "went along" with Mr Harris's advances when she was an adult because she was scared of him, and was at that stage an alcoholic.

    Describing an alleged incident that took place at the woman's home when she was 28 or 29, she told the court she had only invited Mr Harris there because she wanted to talk to him about Bindi.

    Ms Woodley asked the woman why she did not tell Mr Harris "mind your own business" when he asked where her bedroom was.

    The witness replied: "I was drunk at the time. I was an alcoholic."

    When Ms Woodley claimed the sex act that then took place was with the woman's consent, she replied: "I was drunk, I was frightened. I never said no to him."

    'Jealous'

    The witness was also asked about an alleged assault during a visit to the Harris family at their home in Bray, Berkshire, when she was 18.

    She claimed she was staying with the Harris family at their home and says Mr Harris performed a sex act on her after bringing her a cup of tea in the morning.

    However, Ms Woodley said "sexual chemistry" had developed between the pair and said the witness had been flirting with Mr Harris because she was jealous that Bindi had become closer to another friend.

    "I suggest that you consented to that, because there was at this stage in your life sexual chemistry between the two of you," said Ms Woodley.

    The witness replied: "No."

    Rolf Harris arrives at court with his daughter Bindi and wife Alwen Hughes
    Rolf Harris denies all of the allegations against him
    The woman also told the jury she had never tried to profit financially as a result of what had happened between her and Mr Harris.

    Ms Woodley claimed the woman had told Mr Harris to "keep (his) eyes on the papers" after one occasion when he visited at her home, but the witness denied that, describing it as "totally wrong".

    The court had heard earlier that the woman accused Mr Harris of assaulting her while on holiday with his family but showed "no hint of unhappiness" in a diary from the trip.

    She claims Mr Harris first abused her during the holiday, when she was 13, but said she would not have mentioned it in her diary.

    In evidence, she previously told the court that she was scared of Mr Harris and that his actions were "creepy".

    Snorkelling

    Ms Woodley asked her: "You were going across the world with a man you were scared of and who was creepy. Why on earth did you go?"

    "Because I wanted to go with Bindi," she replied and added that she "thought that Rolf wouldn't be around too much".

    The witness was asked about one allegation - that Mr Harris indecently assaulted her under her towel after they had been snorkelling.

    Asked why she had made no reference to the incident with Mr Harris in the diary, she said: "The day was great up until he got the towel and fondled me."

    The woman claimed the first time Mr Harris assaulted her was after she had just got out of the shower in her hotel bedroom during the same holiday.

    Ms Woodley put it to her that "nothing of that nature happened at all" but the witness maintained that it did.

    The alleged assaults happened before such offences abroad could be prosecuted in the UK, so are not among the charges against Mr Harris.

    The witness claims Mr Harris continued to abuse her for a number of years after the holiday, at her home as well as his


    Paul Gadd / Gary Glitter? Known for it, prosecuted for it, repeatedly prosecuted for it, so bad no other country would allow him to enter when he tried to leave Thailand without coming back to the UK. A sick, sick man.
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  12. #27
    Elite Member Kittylady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post

    There was a time when a woman making a formal complaint about rape faced an uphill battle to be believed from the get go so naturally they often didn't put themselves through that ordeal. Now it seems that any such accuser is automatically believed until the accused can prove he/she is innocent; a complete reversal of the fundamental criminal justice principle of the accused being Innocent Until Proved Guilty. It bothers me that accusers in this type of case are given the benefit of anonymity before, during and after the trial while the accused is named and shamed before the trial even begins. Even if they are found to be innocent their reputation and integrity is irredeemably destroyed and if that person happens to be an entertainer they can wave goodbye to that career forever.
    As Sput has already said, sexual assaults are very, very under reported and in the UK at least the rate of conviction remains very, very low (some estimates suggest that only one reported victim in thirty will see their attacker sent to prison). You say that an accuser is "automatically believed" but that isn't the case. Even in 2014 so many things are stacked against you and seen as reasons not to go forward with a prosecution - if you knew your attacker, if you had consumed any alcohol whatsoever that night, if you didn't fight back enough and so on and so on. It seems that the best chance you have of seeing your attacker getting a (paltry) sentence then you need to be assaulted by a complete stranger in your own home while completely sober and after being beaten to a pulp, and even then they have to find and identify him, which is another area where the justice system is lacking.

    Another problem is the attitude of society itself. Slutshaming and victim blaming is still rampant, particularly in cases where the offender is in the public eye or known to the victim. For every person that believes and supports a victim there are plenty more who are ready and willing to say that they are a liar, an attention seeker, after compensation, a vindictive bitch and so on.
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  13. #28
    Elite Member rollo's Avatar
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    Yes, Gary Glitter fled to Thailand and CONTINUED his sexual assaults. Nothing good to say about him. He deliberately evaded justice for years and sometimes that's why these cases take so long to get to court.
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  14. #29
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    Scum in a wig & a glitter suit.


    And no, no-one wants to be a member of your gang Paul Gadd
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  15. #30
    Elite Member NickiDrea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittylady View Post
    Another problem is the attitude of society itself. Slutshaming and victim blaming is still rampant, particularly in cases where the offender is in the public eye or known to the victim. For every person that believes and supports a victim there are plenty more who are ready and willing to say that they are a liar, an attention seeker, after compensation, a vindictive bitch and so on.
    This to me is why the majority of victims don't come forward.

    When I was a sophomore in college, over Christmas break I went over to my "friend's" house. We were drinking. I didn't realize until much later that I drank a lot more than he did, at his urging. I got drunk passed out. When I kind of came to, everything was hazy and I couldn't really move. He was unzipping my jeans and I was too drunk to stop him. He then raped me. I was too drunk to move, say anything, or stop it. Afterwards he put my pants back on, dropped me off on my front step and left. The next morning I still reeked of alcohol and I remember that my mom asked me "were you drinking??" because I was underage and NEVER drank. She wrote it off as me being a college student and didn't ask me any more questions. I am very close to my mom, but was too humiliated to tell her what happened.

    Oddly enough I happened to be taking a class called "Sex Crimes" that semester, that was taught by two District Attorneys who I now try cases against. When the semester began again, I went up to one of them after class and told her what happened. I knew what had happened to me but I asked her if it was rape because I had been drinking. She looked at me and said "you know it was, you need to call the police and report it." I thought about it, but I just couldn't. I didn't want anyone to know what happened, I didn't want anyone to say I deserved it, I was afraid that I would be asked questions about my prior sexual activity, even though I knew from my class that that kind of questioning wasn't permitted. I never told anyone else and he got away with it. I am crying as I type this because almost 15 fucking years later I am still hoping that he didn't do it to anyone else- because if he did I would be partially responsible, as I didn't report him when he did it to me. He COULD have gone away for a long time but I let him get way with it.

    And almost 15 years later, I find myself representing people accused of rape, amongst other crimes. It's odd how my own assault never changed my desire to do my current job. I have tried 20-something of these cases to verdict, which is not a lot by trial attorney standards, but is a lot considering I've been practicing less than 10 years. I have seen TOTALLY credible victims who didn't get justice, alleged victims who I was 99.9% were lying through their teeth and men went to prison on their word, I have won cases I should have lost and lost cases I should have won. But I have never, and will never, humiliate or degrade an alleged victim, even if I think they are lying. I will never backdoor in inappropriate questions designed to break a victim down, I will never victim blame, I will never slutshame. The law wouldn't allow me to anyway, but I just wouldn't.

    These are nerve-wracking cases to try and I certainly wouldn't want to be a juror on a rape case. The conviction rate is lower because most rape cases involve acquaintances, no witnesses and no physical evidence. Meaning, it can be hard for the ADA to even prove that any sexual act occurred at all. That's the nature of sex cases. But for every case where a true victim is denied justice, I can point to a case where an innocent person is sitting in jail for a crime they didn't commit. Seeing these situations on a daily basis is why so many criminal attorneys are cynical, stressed, and drug and alcohol addicted.
    "Thankfully I'm an educated multi-millionaire who knows better than to speak to perverted unjust cops without my lawyer. "
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