Ellen Page comes out as transgender, will be called Elliot

[sputnik]

I think of Chaz as a celebrity more than an actor. Which is why I had the question about Page. My daughter brought up the news when both of us were hammering away at our laptops. I asked her, "What if you are in the middle of a series playing a female character, and now you identify as male, what are you going to do?" And she replied, "Yeah, Elliot Page is playing Vanya on 'Umbrella Academy'. I'm not sure how that is going to be handled."

i don't see why the role would be affected?

[Lofty Bike]

i don't understand the non-binary part. If he is non-binary, why did he feel the need to change his gender identity?
I really try to understand all of this, but sometimes the labels used make no sense to me.

[sputnik]

i don't understand the non-binary part. If he is non-binary, why did he feel the need to change his gender identity?
I really try to understand all of this, but sometimes the labels used make no sense to me.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wjwx...-nonconforming

because all these labels are based on self-identification, people may use them interchangeably, or identify with more than one. elliot page may identify as male but also non-binary, since as a trans person he may feel he's outside society's binary gender norms that usually relate to cis-gender people.

[Lalasnake]

A friend of mine came out as lesbian in her 30s and at first she only dated very masculine women, and thought that was her preference (she said that happens to a fair few women when they first come out). She was in a reasonably serious relationship with a woman who started to transition, and they broke up because my friend wasn't interested in being with a man again. It was very tough on both of them.

In the early 2000s I knew a couple who have since moved away, so I don't know what their situation is now. One of the spouses was MtF trans & had come out & started transitioning after they had been married for some time. The cis wife stayed married to her, & said that although her spouse considered herself a lesbian, the cis partner did not consider herself a lesbian. I imagine it's hard for partners to traverse this world of labels without it triggering their partner's gender dysphoria. Thankfully, they're both tough old birds & had good senses of humor about the situation.

[MohandasKGanja]

i don't see why the role would be affected?

From what I'm reading, the show said that Page's character will remain a Cis-gendered female. On its face, it's not an insurmountable obstacle to cross genders for a role (like Linda Hunt expertly did for "Year of Living Dangerously"). But it seems to me that Page is trending toward male identification and not necessarily non binary. I'm kind of wondering how Page sees himself outwardly manifesting this new identity - like growing facial hair, taking hormones that deepen the voice. And even what roles Page wants to pursue now.

[sputnik]

^^^^
yeah, but at the same time, even if he did choose to change his appearance dramatically, they could always make the character trans? i know it's based on a graphic novel but i'm sure they've already gone off script several times.

[MsDark]

I don't recall if Chaz did anything when he was Chasity other than Sonny and Cher with his parents as a child and then later various reality TV, but he's had some acting roles since the transition and I thought he did a great job on AHS.

Chaz is a total dude (born in the wrong body) looks and mannerisms, way before complete transition, and if I never knew who he was and ran into him on the street I wouldn't think twice. I barely even think of Chaz as trans anymore. He's simply Cher's son.

Not that it matters as far as how he identifies but....are there any recent pics of Elliot?

[ManxMouse]

In the early 2000s I knew a couple who have since moved away, so I don't know what their situation is now. One of the spouses was MtF trans & had come out & started transitioning after they had been married for some time. The cis wife stayed married to her, & said that although her spouse considered herself a lesbian, the cis partner did not consider herself a lesbian. I imagine it's hard for partners to traverse this world of labels without it triggering their partner's gender dysphoria. Thankfully, they're both tough old birds & had good senses of humor about the situation.

Hey, neighbor!

JK. My spouse is MTF, some may remember this here.
I'd say -- just like with any group of people, trans people are each completely unique. First, Elliot is a sucky name. Sorry in advance for the insult, esp, if this is a family name for anyone, just my opinion.

I do think just as with men/women in general, and with gay guys/lesbians, there are significant differences between trans guys and trans gals. And here's the thing -- if you have identified your whole life as a lesbian in a somewhat accepting environment, you've likely felt like you're a part of a proudly feminist community, and don't want to 100% be viewed as a straight man (when because you get to enjoy male privilege, you are part of the male patriarchy). Elliot might be straight in a strict sense but identifies as queer because.....it's complicated.

And the converse is true -- some lesbians (the TERFS, as someone better explained before), and some straight women too feel you can't be considered a woman since you didn't endure female socialization and the shittiness that goes along with it. "You got to revel in male privilege and NOW you want to sidle into the fem world." To me, that's how I saw JK Rowling's whole deal. I understand the impulses involved and many truly have no sense of what gender dysphoria actually is, but there needs to be some understanding of how the male patriarchy suppresses trans folks too, from the moment they take cues from their parents and from anyone around them. The patriarchal system doesn't only hurt cisgender women. And TERFS often like to view MTF (and not so much FTM) as some sort of sick sexual thing-- so, not a fan of TERFS (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists is the acronym).

I've had champagne/cognac/edibles so time for bed. Fuck Trump.

[tulip]

Thanks for the insight ManxMouse!

[Beeyotch]

Yeah I like hearing more relevant perspectives too, thanks Manx. And love the sign-off "Fuck Trump!" LOL we should all close emails like this.

[Novice]

Thanks Manx

Kudos to you!


I find it both funny & objectional that I don't qualify as "female" to some TERFS as I don't have female reproductive organs.
I can't imagine how objectional TERFS are to Trans people.

[Charmed Hour]

^i thought he'd long been out as a lesbian but maybe i'm misremembering.

Often with the transgender community part of their journey to self is to first come out as homosexual. Frankly, far more people in society are accepting of gay man or woman than a transgender individual actively transitioning.

From personal experience my step son did the same. He came out as a lesbian at 17 and than start transitioning FtM at 19-20. He had a long term girlfriend that stood by him for about 2-3 years into his transition. At some point he transitioned enough physically, including top surgery, that he visually appeared completely male. He has full facial hair and copious body hair (far more than his dad)

His girlfriend struggled with "I love YOU but I am not attracted to men". I'm sure it was far more complicated than my statement but that was the simple explanation from our son when he told us.

[tulip]

This was really interesting to me. I understand using their correct name, but "deadname" sounds -- gruesome or something.

Stop deadnaming' Elliot Page, urge some in the LGBTQ community. Here's what that means.
Beth Greenfield
Beth Greenfield·Senior Editor
Wed, December 2, 2020, 5:24 PM CST·9 min read

Dominating celebrity news on Tuesday was word that Umbrella Academy star Elliot Page had come out as transgender. He did so through a lengthy Instagram post that began, “Hi friends, I want to share with you that I am trans, my pronouns are he/they and my name is Elliot.”

News of the announcement spread quickly through media outlets and on social media, where Page was largely inundated with praise and support — and where some media outlets, this one included, were in turn denounced by some for printing Page’s previous name, a practice called “deadnaming” by some in the transgender community.

Elliot Page, seen here attending the IMDb Studio Presented By Intuit QuickBooks in 2019, came out as transgender this week, prompting impassioned discussion about "deadnaming." (Photo: Rich Polk/Getty Images for IMDb)
Elliot Page, seen here in 2019, came out as transgender this week, prompting impassioned discussion about "deadnaming." (Photo: Rich Polk/Getty Images for IMDb)
So, what does deadnaming mean? A deadname is, in simplest terms, according to Merriam-Webster, “the name that a transgender person was given at birth and no longer uses upon transitioning.” Used as a verb, it means “to speak of or address (someone) by their deadname.” Alternative terms such as “birth name” or “prior name,” which are used by GLAAD, mean the same thing, and, according to GLAAD’s media reference guide on covering transgender stories, can be deeply upsetting to the person in question.


“When a transgender person’s birth name is used in a story, the implication is almost always that this is the person’s ‘real name.’ But in fact, a transgender person’s chosen name is their real name, whether or not they are able to obtain a court-ordered name change,” notes the guide. “Many people use names they have chosen for themselves, and the media does not mention their birth name when writing about them, (e.g., Lady Gaga, Demi Moore, Whoopi Goldberg). Transgender people should be accorded the same respect.”

Further, it urges, “Do not reveal a transgender person’s birth name without explicit permission from them. If the person is not able to answer questions about their birth name, err on the side of caution and do not reveal it.”

According to a style guide by the Trans Journalists Association, launched over the summer by 200 transgender journalists, “There’s never a reason to publish someone’s deadname in a story. Reporters should refrain from asking for this information unless it’s absolutely necessary for background checks or public records access. If writing about an individual, you should ask them what language they prefer if you refer to the existence of a deadname.”

Differing opinions

Not everyone was on the same page, however, when it came to reporting on Page, as GLAAD acknowledged in a style guide sent to journalists on Tuesday and later posted online. The extensive guide — which Page signed off on, according to his longtime manager, and shared to his Instagram story —notes that all situations are different, particularly when it comes to celebrities who have long been in the public eye.

“DO refer to them as Elliot Page. DON’T refer to them by their former name. He has changed it, and should be accorded the same respect received by anyone who has changed their name,” the guide notes, referring to Page by both “they” and “he” pronouns, both of which are acceptable to Page. But, the guide adds, “Since Elliot Page was known to the public by their prior name, it may be necessary initially to say ‘Elliot Page, formerly known as Ellen Page …’ However, once the public has learned Page’s new name, do not continually refer to it in future stories.” (Yahoo Life and Entertainment, along with other publications, opted to follow this guidance.)

Elliot Page shared GLAAD's style guide on his Instagram story on Tuesday. (Photo: Instagram/Elliot Page)
Elliot Page shared GLAAD's style guide on his Instagram story on Tuesday. (Photo: Instagram/Elliot Page)
Regarding that guidance, Page’s manager tells Yahoo Life, “Elliot affirms the right of each trans person to decide how their prior name is used. The style guide released yesterday reflects Elliot’s feelings about seeing their prior name used in association with yesterday’s announcement only. Elliot agrees that no one should use a transgender person’s birth name without their explicit permission, in any media format or on social media. Respecting trans people involves respecting their chosen names and pronouns while understanding the use of a birth name without express permission is harmful and inappropriate.”

Further, she adds, “Stories referring to Elliot Page prior to his name and pronoun change should always reference his chosen name and pronouns and, where helpful, include an update linking to a story about Elliot’s chosen name and pronouns. Elliot feels, as is his prerogative, that there is no need for old stories to be rewritten to remove his prior name, however he stresses that any use of his birth name moving forward is strictly inappropriate.”

The term “deadnaming” is also not used unilaterally, Nick Adams, director of transgender media and representation for GLAAD, tells Yahoo Life.

“Trans people use ‘birth name,’ ‘prior name’ and ‘deadname’ to refer to the name they used prior to their transition. There isn’t universal agreement about which phrase to use,” he explains. “Some feel strongly that deadnaming accurately describes the harm caused by using someone’s birth name without their permission, while others feel that the idea of deadnaming implies that when we transition our former selves ‘die’ — and that’s just not the case. Cisgender people often react with grief when they learn someone they love is going to transition, and to be honest, that’s just weird when not only are you not dead, you’re actually happier and more yourself than you’ve ever been. So personally, I never use the phrase ‘deadname’ or ‘deadnaming,’ because I don’t want to reinforce that we somehow die when we transition.”

Zackary Drucker opted to not change her name upon transitioning. (Photo: Rodin Eckenroth/WireImage)
Zackary Drucker opted to not change her name upon transitioning. (Photo: Rodin Eckenroth/WireImage)
And not all transgender celebrities, let alone all transgender people, have the same wishes regarding the use of their prior names. As Adams explains, “Individual trans people have different feelings about sharing their birth name; some find it so painful they never want to hear it again, others don’t mind sharing it, and some trans people keep their birth name and don’t change it. That’s why it’s important to talk to a trans person and ask them how they feel about it — and then don’t assume all trans people feel the same way.”

Actress and producer Zackary Drucker, for example, opted not to change her name upon transitioning, explaining in a 2016 interview, “I considered changing my name and when I realized that I didn’t want to, that I’d only be doing it to make everyone around me more comfortable, I decided that it was the epitome of a bad decision. Gandhi said, ‘Be the change you wish to see in the world,’ and the world I decided to live in is one in which a woman is named ‘Zackary.’”

Caitlyn Jenner, meanwhile, has been known to self-refer to her prior name, noting in a 2017 interview, “I liked Bruce. He was a good person. He did a lot in his life. Oh, ‘he didn’t even exist.’ Yes he did exist! He worked his butt off. He won the [Olympic] Games. He raised amazing kids. He did a lot of very, very good things and it’s not like I just want to throw that away.”

Still, the deep pain and anger felt by many trans people when they witness deadnaming, such as in the case of Page, comes from a long, reckless and traumatizing history of the practice, Adams explains.

Laverne Cox, seen here at the 2020 American Music Awards, has spoken out forcefully against deadnaming. (Photo: ABC via Getty Images)
Laverne Cox, seen here at the 2020 American Music Awards, has spoken out forcefully against deadnaming. (Photo: ABC via Getty Images)
“For decades the media has dragged a trans person’s birth name into a story when it’s not relevant, with the false implication that the birth name is their ‘true gender.’ Just this year, too many journalists included Aimee Stephens’ birth name in stories about her death,” he says, referring to some of the May obituaries of Stephens — the transgender woman at the center of a high-profile LGBTQ discrimination case that had been pending before the Supreme Court (and which was later won) — and their inexplicable inclusion of her birth name. It drew swift retribution from organizations including Lambda Legal and the National Center for Lesbian Rights, prompting the publications to amend their stories.

Further, Adams notes, “we don’t truly know how many trans people are killed in acts of anti-transgender violence, because the news reports about their murder often only use their birth name. Unless someone from the community steps forward to say they knew them, they were trans and this is their real name, we don’t even know that the person killed was transgender. The trans community has been traumatized by our birth name being used as a weapon against us, and there is growing anger and pushback when it’s used without the trans person’s consent.”

It’s an issue that actress Laverne Cox — who just recently spoke out about being the target of an anti-trans attack in Los Angeles — highlighted on social media in August, in reaction to a report about how police often deadname and misgender transgender murder victims.

“As I read this report from ProPublica I sobbed and wept for all the trans people who have been murdered and those experiencing direct, cultural and structural violence,” she wrote. “I wept because I haven’t been allowing myself to. I wept for all of the violence I have experienced in my own life. I am angered, saddened and enraged that the police in Jacksonville, Florida and other jurisdictions don’t have policies in place to respect the gender identities of trans folks when they have been MURDERED,” she added, calling it “injustice on top of injustice.”

Bottom line: Regarding celebrities who come out as trans, follow their wishes, and in the absence of a specifically tailored style guide, focus on the person's work, rather than their previous name.

[sputnik]

i think imdb and other sites have to at least mention the name he was credited as when he appeared in films as ellen page. i've seen it before with actors who change their names after their careers start. if i remember correctly, hugh grant started out being credited as 'hughie grant' and imdb will say hugh grant and then (credited as hughie grant) or something to that effect.

has elliot page said what he wants with regard to how to refer to the films where he was credited as ellen page?

[ManxMouse]

Thanks Manx

Kudos to you!


I find it both funny & objectional that I don't qualify as "female" to some TERFS as I don't have female reproductive organs.
I can't imagine how objectional TERFS are to Trans people.

Tha fuck? Really?? That's absurd.

I wrongly said Terf's are lesbians, actually they're a subset of feminists, so can be any women.
Also, just want to say to the poster who mentioned it, that the state of a trans person's genitals doesn't dictate their sexual orientation in relation to other people because you aren't any less or more trans based on whether you've had gender reassignment surgery. Some never have the surgery for various reasons, and if they identify as female and like females, then they're gay etc. And I imagine Elliott's wife does not now consider herself straight simply because her partner has now come out as trans. They can both consider themselves queer for purposes of non-labeling I suppose.