Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 4567891011 LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 163
Like Tree546Likes

Thread: Documentary Accusing Michael Jackson of Sexually Abusing Boys to Premiere at Sundance

  1. #106
    Elite Member kasippu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    4,403

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadestone View Post
    I wonder if MJ abused the ones he knew from younger ages. I looked at a few of the pages on that site and it seems like the ones who accused him of molesting them knew MJ since they were 9 or 10, even if the abuse didn't happen until a few years later. If Alfonso met MJ when he was at the age of 12, maybe it was too late for MJ to groom him?

    Ugh, I feel gross even thinking about this.


    From that website
    Alfonso was also often dressed up like Jackson which isn’t a good sign either, because many of the boys who accused Jackson of sexual abuse used to be dressed up like him. Besides, Alfonso was the first mini MJ! No boy before him dressed the same way as Jackson.
    Jadestone and C_is_for_Cookie like this.

  2. #107
    Bronze Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    44

    Default

    I don't Think Culkin or Feldman will EVER talk even if they were molested.

    If they were molested it happened through grooming and normalising of the behaviour.....at a time where they were pre-sexual.....they not only have all the regular[sic] abuse issues to deal after the fact but the manipulation very likely also questioned their own sexuality internally at a time when they shouldn't have had to and even now today...... which is just one extra layer of the nasty onion to un-peel and probably one of the hardest and most personal issues for them that I can't imagine many folks wanting to deal with in the public eye.

    Corey HAS been trying to prove his manhood ever since while wearing his jackson like outfits.....or he could just be the jerk we've come to know him as.
    Jadestone and lindsaywhit like this.

  3. #108
    Elite Member kasippu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    4,403

    Default

    Leaving Neverland was shown yesterday in my motherland. There was a 5 time increase in calls to the help line and a 40% increase in male calls.

  4. #109
    Silver Member Jadestone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Oooh, I missed that part about Alfonso dressing like him. For some reason I couldn't find the Alfonso page on that site.

    I agree with all of you, there are a lot of factors involved which could cause him to abuse one kid but not another, and then it's made more difficult by the fact that many victims will deny it even decades later. It reminds me of The Keepers, a Netflix docuseries about the murder of a nun in which former students investigate the murder decades earlier of a favorite teacher (the nun) and then discover this massive abuse ring in Baltimore centering around the two priests of their high school, police, and local business owners. Some of the high school students (like the women who start investigating the murder) had a great experience at the school and were never abused. Many women never realized any such abuse was going on. Some were abused and repressed the memories. Some were abused by one priest and not the other. Some were abused by both priests. Some were passed to other people.

    The real kicker is that one of the priests used to abuse little boys and was moved away from a grade school where he had access to little boys. The diocese thought by moving him to a girls' high school, he'd stop. But he just changed his set of victims! I always think of that whenever someone defending MJ go on about how little girls weren't abused by him. Why is that proof of anything? Maybe he didn't want to abuse little girls and he didn't have to, because he had access to so many little boys.
    Waterslide and lindsaywhit like this.
    wife: Why is your back all scratched up?
    [flashback to me chasing a raccoon after she told me to leave it alone]
    me: I'm having an affair (by @iwearaonesie
    on Twitter)

  5. #110
    Elite Member Waterslide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    out where the buses don't run
    Posts
    19,542

    Default

    ^I had wanted to see that documentary, but wasn't sure what it was about. I'll have to watch that.

    As for MJ, I grew up right around the same time all this was happening. I had the Thriller album and grew out of it super quickly, but everyone in my class had that album and tried to moonwalk, etc...my tastes started going in different directions by the time I was in 6th or 7th grade (and by the time Bad came out, I don't know anyone who would have been caught dead buying it or listening to his music), but I remember what a big deal Michael Jackson was and I think it's strange looking back and seeing how much of his public persona was geared to children. At the time, it's not something that I would have paid attention to, obviously, but it seemed perfectly normal that every time you saw Michael Jackson he was surrounded by kids. I don't remember anyone ever questioning it. Can you imagine the things that would have been said about Boy George if he had been followed by a gaggle of young boys everywhere he went? Can you imagine what people would say if someone like Justin Bieber did that now? In hindsight, it seems insane. In the documentary, they show how Michael would bring groups of kids on stage from the audience and that was bizarre, too, especially in retrospect. He hid in plain sight behind that ridiculous facade - the wigs and shoulder pads and masks and made-up soft voice - and got away with it.

    Anyway. Here's the ad with Alfonso. It's gross that the whole point is that the gaggle of Pepsi-guzzling kids are the "new generation".

    weathered1 likes this.
    "AND WHEN YOU BECAME DENISE, I TOLD ALL YOUR COLLEAGUES, THOSE CLOWN COMICS, TO FIX THEIR HEARTS OR DIE."

  6. #111
    Elite Member Waterslide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    out where the buses don't run
    Posts
    19,542

    Default

    Sorry for the double post, but I thought it would be more cohesive if I posted this separately.

    Leaving Neverland’s Director on the Backlash, the Documentary’s Omissions, and Why It Had to Be So Explicit

    By MIKE PESCA
    MARCH 04, 20191:04 PM





    A young James Safechuck and Michael Jackson.
    HBO
    More on MJ Reckoning



    Wade Robson and James Safechuck were two talented young boys who came to the attention—and then fell under the spell—of the singer who was then the most famous man in the world: Michael Jackson. Groomed into yearslong relationships of sexual abuse, they tell their stories in grueling detail in a two-part documentary on HBO, Leaving Neverland. On a recent episode of The Gist, Mike Pesca spoke with Dan Reed, the film’s director, about how the documentary came about, why its descriptions of sexual abuse had to be so detailed, and what the reaction has been like since the premiere at Sundance Film Festival in January.

    Mike Pesca: With this film, were you righting a wrong or explaining a phenomenon?


    Dan Reed:
    A little bit of both. Explaining the phenomenon is really important because people don’t understand child sexual abuse very well—I certainly didn’t before I began this—and don’t really get why Wade Robson went from enthusiastically defending Michael Jackson on the witness stand in 2005 to where he is today.
    And righting the wrong that was done to these little boys. Hopefully we can right it to some extent. Jackson is dead, so he can’t be put on trial.

    What was the spark at first? Was it more “I can’t believe this” or “How did this happen?”


    What draws me into any story is taking people inside a thing that they think they know and revealing the complexity of human behavior because I think that’s what the longform documentary does: It gives you space to go, “Yes, this is true, and the opposite is also true, and people are complicated and they do weird things.” It’s not black and white. And this seemed to be one of those stories.
    At the outset I had no special interest in Jackson. I wish I could say I’d set out to make a big difference in the #MeToo movement and all, but this project came about in a kind of random way.

    Right, so how did it come about randomly?

    It came about through a casual conversation with a Channel 4 executive in the U.K. We were talking about the big stories out there that are slightly unresolved. I commissioned someone to do some research and they came up with this—I think it was a forum page that had a reference to these two guys I’d never heard of, Wade Robson and James Safechuck, who seemed to be wanting to tell a story of child sexual abuse about their relationship with Michael Jackson. I was like, “Oh, that’s weird.” The way they experienced Jackson’s attention when they were children was, as you know, “He was kind, and gentle, and loving, and amazing, but he raped me.” Of course those are two parts of the same narrative.

    They are. So you see these names on a piece of paper and there was some information that maybe they want to talk. How do you go about pursuing that?


    Well, the information was that they were going public because they were litigating. I had no idea if they’d want to talk to me or not, so I contacted their lawyers in Los Angeles. We talk, and they clearly decided that my track record warranted having a meeting with Wade and James, and that’s what happened. And then they agreed to be interviewed.

    Before you even turned the camera on, how many meetings did you have with James and Wade, and what are they like?


    I have one meeting with Wade and James separately because they’re not allowed to have any contact, and they live many hours apart. James I met for dinner with his wife. He seemed sensitive, vulnerable, sincere.

    And then I flew to Hawaii to meet Wade, and we had lunch, and he seemed very poised, thoughtful. He asked me some good questions about my intentions. And we decided to go ahead.

    Who’d you film first?


    I filmed Wade first. Three days for Wade and two days for James.

    In between the days of shooting with Wade, did he change from day to day?


    No, he didn’t. He grew more tired. We all did. What the film’s about is the reckoning. It’s two families coming to terms with what happened to their sons. Why did the sons keep silent for so long? Why did they keep this secret? Why did Wade give false witness and perjure himself on the witness stand? It’s to do with how survivors of sexual abuse experience that, and how they form a deep attachment sometimes with the abuser, and how that attachment persists into adult life.

    “I wanted to be present in the room, as awful as it sounds, when this was taking place. I wanted people to be confronted with the horror of what it means for a 7-year-old child to be preyed upon by a pedophile.”— Dan Reed

    What was your strategy going in about how to lay out what happened and when to bring up the most sensitive materials?


    I said, “Let’s go through this chronologically.” And that had a big impact on Wade, as it happened, because you start laying out your whole life.

    Had he done that in therapy? Or to anyone?


    No. He’d never done it before. And I think we said that when it comes to the sex, we can’t draw a veil. We have to go there. We have to talk about these sexual acts that happened.

    Yes.


    Because Michael Jackson represented himself as someone who had an innocent interest in children but was intimate with them, and close to them, and physically affectionate and all that. We had to make very clear that this was sex.

    Did you always know that would be in the final cut?


    Yeah. I think that testimony, when it’s delivered in a very present way, when the person is present in the moment that they’re describing, is so much more powerful than simply information delivered, right? And that’s what I wanted to do. I wanted to be present in the room, as awful as it sounds, when this was taking place. I wanted people to be confronted with the horror of what it means for a 7-year-old child to be preyed upon by a pedophile.

    So that was with Wade. With James in the documentary, there is an almost unrelenting recounting of all the places where they had sex. Is that for the same purpose? To lay it out clearly so you can’t look away?


    That took me by surprise. I mean my jaw hit the floor.
    Email address:
    Send me updates about Slate special offers.
    By signing up, you agree to our Privacy Policy and Terms.
    Sign Up


    Yeah.


    We’re talking about Neverland, and James was talking about his sexual contact with Michael. Michael said to James, “Neverland is for you. I bought it for you. This is our place.” And it’s so remote. He isolated himself and he created a children’s paradise, clearly, I think, to draw children to him.

    So Wade is describing his time at Neverland and the wonders of Neverland, and then he begins to describe almost like a journey through each of the attractions and each of the locations in Neverland that Michael created. And on each stop in that journey there is a bed, and there is sex. And the first three or four I thought, “Wow, that’s heavy.” And then he went on, and on, and on.

    I’m going to read to you a few bits of
    criticism of the film by one of my colleagues here, Christina Cauterucci. I don’t know that I necessarily agree with it, but I think it’s fair, and I’d like your answer. “In glossing over, and sometimes entirely excluding, elements of the factual record, the documentary hobbles its chances to convince skeptics that these men are telling the truth. This misstep … does a grave disservice to both men. … Leaving Neverland could have helped viewers understand that complexity by asking Robson and Safechuck a few pointed questions about why they’ve tried multiple times to get money from the Jackson estate.”

    Yeah. I disagree. I think you only feel the absence of what she’s describing if you have been poisoned by the rhetoric of the estate. The estate’s rhetoric and the Jackson family’s rhetoric—and this has been the case for the last two decades whenever any sexual abuse allegations have popped up—is “It’s all about the money. They want the money.” It’s their refrain. And of course in many ways it is about money, but it’s about the Jacksons’ money and their desire to hang onto it and to retain the value of their asset, which is, of course, Jackson’s catalog and his reputation. Think about it for a second: The justice system, the courts … is that not where you go to get justice when you have been wronged? Is that not the proper way to seek redress? If someone stabs you in the street, you don’t write a novel about it.

    Right.


    These men were raped. Rape is a crime. I did go interview and speak to many of the investigators involved in the previous police investigations, and they all thought Jackson was guilty as hell and were mortified by the fact that he had been acquitted. And there are many pieces of eyewitness testimony from members of the Jackson household staff who saw weird stuff going on. But none of those pieces of testimony is as conclusive or as persuasive or as powerful as Wade and James’ statements in the film. In this case we have the mass of evidence that Wade and James did have a relationship with Jackson.

    Oh, yeah.


    We know that, we have documentary evidence of that—that they did spend many nights in bed with him and no one contests that. So, you know, do we believe the allegations about what happened in that bed at night? Well, I do.

    Is the Michael Jackson estate truly powerful? You get different impressions. He has this large catalog that obviously gives him a lot of money, and yet Neverland’s been on the market and declining in value. Are they really a behemoth to worry about?


    The estate is both powerful in this and powerless. They’re powerful because they can make a lot of noise and can launch a lot of lawsuits. But they’re powerless to present any real evidence against what Wade and James are saying. So they’re trying to present Wade as a liar and they’re saying he’s a perjurer, which is kind of bizarre because either he’s a perjurer or he was telling the truth at the trial, right?

    Right.


    You can’t have it both ways. If he’s a perjurer, then Jackson was a rapist.

    Right, it’s like the old line, “Were you lying then or lying now?” His answer: “I was lying then.” There you go.

    “You can’t have it both ways. If he’s a perjurer, then Jackson was a rapist.”— Dan Reed

    In order to understand why Wade Robson lied on the witness stand, you have to learn something about child sexual abuse. I never set out to topple Michael Jackson or to detract from his glory as an amazing entertainer, and that’s of no interest to me at all. I don’t care whether people continue listening to his music or not. People make their own minds up. I have no guidance at all for anyone. The only guidance I have is please listen to Wade and James’ stories, and when you watch this four-hour film, please open your mind to this picture of how child sexual abuse unfolds in later life. It’s not a simple case of “Mommy, a man did a bad thing to me” and running to Mommy or to the police. Kids don’t do that when they’ve been molested. They don’t do that. It just doesn’t happen. Because the person doing the molesting is often a friend, or a trusted uncle, or whoever.

    “The tragedy of Joy Robson is that she thought that Wade would tell her if something bad was happening and, of course, Wade didn’t think anything bad was happening.”— Dan Reed

    I want to ask specifically about
    the mothers. Did you come to a conclusion about them?

    I did, and slightly different conclusions about each of them. Certainly both of them did not know that Michael was abusing their children. That I’m 100 percent sure of, all right? I know that Joy Robson is a fierce defender of her son. She would never allow even a hint of sexual abuse to happen, and it’s an absurd thing to say. If she’d had any real concern that Wade was being sexually abused, she would have taken him away and never seen Michael Jackson again. The tragedy of Joy Robson is that she thought that Wade would tell her if something bad was happening and, of course, Wade didn’t think anything bad was happening.

    A child doesn’t think there’s anything wrong. Wade realized that this was kind of special and that it shouldn’t be discussed with anyone else because Michael indoctrinated him from the very first time, I think, that they had sex. “You can never tell anyone. This is our thing. People don’t understand. People are stupid, and they’re ignorant, and this is us, you and me against the world” and all that. So, tragically, Joy is looking to her son to ring a warning, to ring an alarm if anything bad is going on, and he never does. And the first thing she says to him when he discloses it to her so many years later is: “How could you not have told me?” And as Wade says in the film, that’s a really difficult question to answer.

    Yes.


    Stephanie Safechuck, on the other hand, she kind of owns her failure much more emphatically. She says, “I had one job. I had one child, and I fucked up.” And that’s a tremendously powerful statement, I think, to hear from a mother. At the same time, when you take her back to Neverland, and the wine cellar, and the cooks, and the glory of it all … when she’s present in that moment, you can see how seductive it all was to her.

    As far as Wade’s mother, Joy, goes, is there an element of willful blindness? There are so many signs, the sign of sleeping in the bed with a grown man, to the point where Safechuck’s mother exults when Michael Jackson dies, whereas Joy Robson grieves for a week.


    They’re in different situations, the two moms, in 2009. Stephanie Safechuck has already learned that, to quote James, “Michael wasn’t a good man.” And that’s why she’s jubilant when he dies.

    And Joy is still in the dark. She was ambitious for her son and rightly so. He’s a bit of a genius. … He was choreographing Britney Spears’ world tour at the age of 14, and NSYNC at the age of 16. This guy was a prodigy. So Joy gambled on her son’s career, and it paid off, but there was a terrible price to pay, and that’s not a price that she was aware of. The opportunity and the dazzle of Michael may have … well, it did make her blind, didn’t it?

    Has the film been received in the way that you would have liked?


    It’s been incredible. It’s been astonishing. It premiered at Sundance in January and got standing ovations. And that was life-changing for Wade and James because they were used to people throwing shit at them, and it was incredible validation. I think they’ve gone from strength to strength since then. I hope that some good will come out of the film in the shape of people feeling able to break their silence if they’re victims of child sexual abuse. Forget Michael Jackson—this is a really great, I think, detailed and thorough account of the grooming of two families by a sexual predator.

    “I don’t care whether people continue listening to his music or not. People make their own minds up. The only guidance I have is please listen to Wade and James’ stories.”— Dan Reed

    And that’s where it transcends the bizarre sui generis story and person of Michael Jackson.


    Yes, exactly. I keep coming back to this: This was never for me about taking aim at Michael Jackson or his legacy or anything like that. And that’s why I don’t care whether people listen to his music or not. This is what I do: I tell stories about things that are complicated and things that people think they know about, like child sexual abuse, but don’t really know about at all. And there’s a valuable story to be told and one that touches a lot of people. I didn’t want to make this film as an answer to what the estate has said for ages and what the family has said for ages, and I didn’t want it to be a granular retort to all the falsities that the Jackson side are spewing at Wade and James. I think it’ll have much more value, and much more longevity, as a dignified, thorough, coherent portrait of two families coming to terms with child sexual abuse.

    This interview has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.
    https://slate.com/culture/2019/03/le...interview.html
    "AND WHEN YOU BECAME DENISE, I TOLD ALL YOUR COLLEAGUES, THOSE CLOWN COMICS, TO FIX THEIR HEARTS OR DIE."

  7. #112
    Elite Member yanna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    10,519

    Default

    Watching Leaving Neverland now. OMG, guys. Sick to my stomach. Those poor guys what they went through. Poor Safechuck, recounting all the different places in Neverland where he had sex with MJ, I mean wtf, were his parents blind?
    effie2 and louiswinthorpe111 like this.
    If a god of love and life ever did exist... he is long since dead. Someone... something, rules in his place.

  8. #113
    Elite Member BelledeJour's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    5,782

    Default

    I watched part 1 yesterday and part 2 today. It is a mix between disgust, anger and sadness. You can still see how both are struggling with their past.

  9. #114
    Elite Member effie2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Where it all begun
    Posts
    15,457

    Default

    of course i wont warch it,it wont make me any happier..i am sorry to say i only wish MJ had died earlier,before he polluted this earth with his presence.
    "Effie is all kinds of awesome." - Some internet moderator


  10. #115
    Bronze Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    231

    Default

    So I watched both parts yesterday and I watched the Oprah interviews. Normally not a big fan of Oprah but thought she did a good job on highlighting a survivors experience and how the celebrity culture also contributed to these men’s experiences both when they were kids and even now ( given the Michael Jackson fans who refuse to believe any negatives comments about him).

    I really don’t think he did anything to the “ celebrity” kids he hung out with ( McCauley Culkin et al) cause to me there was no power imbalance . Abusers need the power imbalance in order to abuse...they need the victim to be made to feel special by their attention. To some degree these celebrity kids were already used to feeling special simply by being celebrities. I also think these relationships were cultivated by Michael because it “ normalizes “ his relationships with all these other little boys. If McCauley culkin can hang out with Michael and feel safe , that’s A very powerful validation of michaels trustworthiness and safeness. And when these celebrity kids come forward and testify on michaels behalf...people are inclined to place more value on their versions again because of the power of celebrity status. It’s the halo affect all celebrities are given.

  11. #116
    Elite Member crayzeehappee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    In the fog
    Posts
    1,663

    Default

    ^^I also think he didn't do anything to the celeb kids because it would've been a lot less easy to get away with. Not to mention, if they came forward people would (sadly) be more willing to believe them on account of their celebrity status. That's what I think anyway. I haven't watched the documentary yet (and haven't decided if I will), but from reading about it it's apparent that MJ was very careful and did everything in his power to avoid being caught.
    holly likes this.
    This seems like a lot of effort just to marry one of the Jonas Brothers. - ChemicalHelena

  12. #117
    Bronze Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    231

    Default

    I know it’s difficult to watch but I feel like not watching it is invalidating the stories of these 2 men. They lived it and ( in my opinion ) its incumbent for us to watch it so people are aware of the signs and hopefully bring out the horrible people who do this and shine a light on them. I just feel we can’t close our eyes to this no matter how I uncomfortable it makes us feel. They lived through it and will live their whole lives still living through it...I feel we owe owe it to them to at least watch it. ( sorry ...not trying to be preachy ...just feel we have to bring this out from the cover of darkness).

  13. #118
    Elite Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    7,780

    Default

    I wish I had HBO. I want to/don't want to see it. But I feel I should.

    I know he's guilty either way. There has been too much over the years. Just too much.

  14. #119
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    597

    Default

    I watched it and the Oprah interview then I went back and rewatched part 1 again. The first time I watched it I thought it was super weird and disturbing how Joy Robson talked about the early years with Michael Jackson. Wade talked about the magical experience of being in Michael’s world too and how much he loved Michael but there was sadness and pain too in his telling of those years. I didn’t see any sadness in Joy’s interview at all.

    I watched part 1 again knowing what Michael did to Wade and I felt such a deep sadness for the adorable and gifted little boy Wade was back then. His mom seems to have separated her good memories from the abuse of her son. If I was his mom, every single warm thought and good memory I had of Michael and those years would be forever tainted with the knowledge of what he did to my son and I would not be smiling or laughing at any of those memories.

  15. #120
    Elite Member Waterslide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    out where the buses don't run
    Posts
    19,542

    Default

    As a side note, I thought Wade's wife kicked ass. Not that James's wife wasn't strong and supportive, too, but we just didn't get as much air time with her it felt like. Amanda seems like a tough woman. One of her first questions to Wade after he admitted what happened to him was, "Can you be around our child?" I can't imagine having to look at someone you love and have to ask that question and the way the story is presented, it seems like she had no malice towards Wade, she was just doing the right thing by her child. She wouldn't even speak to Joy for a long time.

    I also liked Wade's brother.

    And thinking about all of this, you don't realize how much MJ tore apart families and how all that damage hurt so many people connected to the children.
    "AND WHEN YOU BECAME DENISE, I TOLD ALL YOUR COLLEAGUES, THOSE CLOWN COMICS, TO FIX THEIR HEARTS OR DIE."

Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 4567891011 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 6 users browsing this thread. (1 members and 5 guests)

  1. Beeyotch

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: October 2nd, 2018, 09:06 PM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: December 13th, 2011, 12:04 PM
  3. Replies: 6
    Last Post: May 7th, 2009, 03:02 PM
  4. Man claims Michael Jackson hired him to 'adopt boys'
    By lovely bones in forum Gossip Archive
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: July 9th, 2006, 05:54 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •