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Thread: Cate Blanchett and Andrew Upton adopted a baby girl: Edith Vivian Patricia Upton

  1. #31
    Elite Member stella blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sluce View Post
    Some then seal the original certificate preventing even the adoptee to access this document when they are adults. No other citizens are denied this right but adoptees are treated as second class citizens.
    I have to take issue with this. The sealing of the documents protects the birth parents. If I gave up a child for adoption and did not choose an open adoption, I would not want him/her tracking me down later for any reason. I don't think that's second-class citizenship, it's common courtesy for the person who was nice enough not to abort you.
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  2. #32
    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    And I have to take issue with the thought that a birth parent's right supersede those of the adoptee who had no say in the process. It's a civil rights issue which is why the laws are changing in many states. And abortion has nothing to do with adoption. Study after study shows that when faced with an unplanned pregnancy women tend to chose between abortion or birth. If they rule out abortion, they then decide between parenting or adoption. I have never met a birthparent who said, "If you promise to make sure this child never finds me, I will go through the pregnancy and give it away. But if there is a chance they will find me I'll have an abortion" Very few birthparents, even those from many years ago, want the records sealed because they do not want their children to be denied. Those laws were set in place to protect the adoptive parents, not the birth families or the adoptees. Women were shamed for getting pregnant, and they were told they needed this to be a dirty little secret. God what a nasty message that sent to these poor women.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by stella blue View Post
    ... it's common courtesy for the person who was nice enough not to abort you.
    next time one of my kids disrespects me, i'm going to tell them they need to be more courteous since i was nice enough not to abort them.

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  4. #34
    Elite Member stella blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sluce View Post
    And I have to take issue with the thought that a birth parent's right supersede those of the adoptee who had no say in the process. It's a civil rights issue which is why the laws are changing in many states. And abortion has nothing to do with adoption. Study after study shows that when faced with an unplanned pregnancy women tend to chose between abortion or birth. If they rule out abortion, they then decide between parenting or adoption. I have never met a birthparent who said, "If you promise to make sure this child never finds me, I will go through the pregnancy and give it away. But if there is a chance they will find me I'll have an abortion" Very few birthparents, even those from many years ago, want the records sealed because they do not want their children to be denied. Those laws were set in place to protect the adoptive parents, not the birth families or the adoptees. Women were shamed for getting pregnant, and they were told they needed this to be a dirty little secret. God what a nasty message that sent to these poor women.
    Well put me in the minority, then, because if (hypothetically) I were in this situation, I would not want to be found, and if I were found, I would have a big problem with it. If someone chooses to close a chapter of their life, that should be final, and I don't think it's fair for someone who has a family to go fucking up somebody else's out of sheer curiosity.
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  5. #35
    czb
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    yeah, i can see how wanting to know who your birth mom is constitutes 'sheer curiosity'.



    are you truly this insensitive? you make ann coulter sounds like a gentle soul....
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  6. #36
    Elite Member NickiDrea's Avatar
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    I can understand where Stella is coming from even though I think adoptees do have the right to know certain things about their biological parents. Let's say that someone is raped by a stranger and is anti-abortion but gives the baby up for adoption. Maybe, just maybe, that victim doesn't WANT to see the child ever again because of trauma. Maybe it would cause a serious emotional break for them to meet or speak to the child. In that situation, I don't agree that the adoptee's rights to know their birth parents supersedes the birth mother's right to privacy.

    That's an extreme situation and probably atypical. But I don't agree that adoptee's rights trump the parents' on every situation. However, when it comes to medical situations I think the rights of the adoptee do trump the bio parents' right to privacy. Either the bio parents should meet the adoptees in person to discuss medical issues or give them a full medical history.
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    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    Women who are raped and place the child for adoption is such an extreme rarity so I cannot justify the denial of access to records for ALL adoptees for a very rare few. Most staes with open records allow a birthparent to file a form stating they do not want to be found. They are asked to provide medical records with that form and an explanation if they wish to provide one. That meets the needs of all without denying a class of people their civil rights.

    I have also seen a birthmother who was raped testify as to why she felt records must be open. Her point was that she has no legal protection to keep the rapist from contacting her once he has served his time, so why should the child, who is innocent in this, be denied their rights.

    I deal with the fall out of the enforced shame and secrecy all the time, and treat these people knowing the system harmed them more than it helped them.
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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    australia's laws are so fucked up and backwards in some regards, whether it's adoption, censorship or immigration. and it's weird how pervasive they are regardless of whether it's the right or the left that's in power.

    basically, if you're not capable of having bio kids, you're fucked because the laws make it near impossible to adopt, and they don't allow for surrogacy either, so you have to have a lot of money and go overseas if you want to have your child carried by a surrogate.



    Quote Originally Posted by sluce View Post
    And I have to take issue with the thought that a birth parent's right supersede those of the adoptee who had no say in the process. It's a civil rights issue which is why the laws are changing in many states. And abortion has nothing to do with adoption. Study after study shows that when faced with an unplanned pregnancy women tend to chose between abortion or birth. If they rule out abortion, they then decide between parenting or adoption. I have never met a birthparent who said, "If you promise to make sure this child never finds me, I will go through the pregnancy and give it away. But if there is a chance they will find me I'll have an abortion" Very few birthparents, even those from many years ago, want the records sealed because they do not want their children to be denied. Those laws were set in place to protect the adoptive parents, not the birth families or the adoptees. Women were shamed for getting pregnant, and they were told they needed this to be a dirty little secret. God what a nasty message that sent to these poor women.
    Quote Originally Posted by NickiDrea View Post
    I can understand where Stella is coming from even though I think adoptees do have the right to know certain things about their biological parents. Let's say that someone is raped by a stranger and is anti-abortion but gives the baby up for adoption. Maybe, just maybe, that victim doesn't WANT to see the child ever again because of trauma. Maybe it would cause a serious emotional break for them to meet or speak to the child. In that situation, I don't agree that the adoptee's rights to know their birth parents supersedes the birth mother's right to privacy.

    That's an extreme situation and probably atypical. But I don't agree that adoptee's rights trump the parents' on every situation. However, when it comes to medical situations I think the rights of the adoptee do trump the bio parents' right to privacy. Either the bio parents should meet the adoptees in person to discuss medical issues or give them a full medical history.
    i'm not a fan of mandatory open adoptions. i think if you decide to give your child up for adoption and want to close that chapter of your life, that should be respected. likewise, if parents adopt a kid, they're the parents and shouldn't have to have less rights than bio parents and live with the possibility of the bio parents wanting to be involved in the kid's life. i think adoption should be as "final" as if that couple had had that child themselves and from a legal standpoint there shouldn't be any difference between families with adopted kids and families with bio kids
    i think the kid has certain rights - like a right to access medical records and medical history and that sort of thing but just like i don't think bio parents can demand to have access to the kid they gave up, i don't think the bio kid has the right to demand access to the bio parent if the bio parent doesn't agree.
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  9. #39
    czb
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickiDrea View Post
    I can understand where Stella is coming from even though I think adoptees do have the right to know certain things about their biological parents. .... In that situation, I don't agree that the adoptee's rights to know their birth parents supersedes the birth mother's right to privacy.

    ....
    i agree with this as well. but stating that '... it's common courtesy for the person who was nice enough not to abort you' is beyond fucked up. sorry, but writing something like - even as hyperbole - is inherently nasty.
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    Super Moderator Tati's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sluce View Post
    Termination of parental rights - Some states allow a birthparents to terminate their parental rights after 72 hours. Yes, 72 hours after giving birth the law says they are of sound mind and can sign an irrevocable voluntary termination of their rights to their child. I am not fan of that process and do not feel that 72 hours gives enough time for a mother, often young, to decompress from the physical and hormonal process of giving birth, much less make such a decision.
    Jesus Christ. 72 hours. No. No.

    Quote Originally Posted by stella blue View Post
    Well put me in the minority, then, because if (hypothetically) I were in this situation, I would not want to be found, and if I were found, I would have a big problem with it. If someone chooses to close a chapter of their life, that should be final, and I don't think it's fair for someone who has a family to go fucking up somebody else's out of sheer curiosity.
    I think you may be finding it simply impossible to imagine the perspective of the child here, and that's your prerogative. But I think you need to remember that you're talking about real human beings and there is a legitimate perspective, history, and psyche in the mix. "Sheer curiosity"? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
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  11. #41
    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    The "sheer curiosity" perspective is used by those who have a vested interest in keeping records sealed. It's a way to demean an adult adoptee for wanting to know the basic information that the rest of us take for granted. My opinion about all of this changed when I sat with a woman in her 40s, as she saw an old tattered photo of her now deceased birth mother and sobbed as she she explained that no one could possibly understand what it is like to for the first time in her life, see someone else who looked like her and feel that genetic connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    i'm not a fan of mandatory open adoptions. i think if you decide to give your child up for adoption and want to close that chapter of your life, that should be respected. likewise, if parents adopt a kid, they're the parents and shouldn't have to have less rights than bio parents and live with the possibility of the bio parents wanting to be involved in the kid's life. i think adoption should be as "final" as if that couple had had that child themselves and from a legal standpoint there shouldn't be any difference between families with adopted kids and families with bio kids
    i think the kid has certain rights - like a right to access medical records and medical history and that sort of thing but just like i don't think bio parents can demand to have access to the kid they gave up, i don't think the bio kid has the right to demand access to the bio parent if the bio parent doesn't agree.
    I am not aware of any country that mandates open adoption. Research is showing it is in the best interest of all parties, but no one is legally required to enter into an open adoption. However, if you agree to an open adoption there must be legal protection for all parties or we will keep getting the cases where prospective adoptive parents agree to ongoing contact, and then once the adoption is finalized they back out. They are then breaking the agreement with the biological parents who would not have selected them to parent their child. Adoptive parents never have less rights. They have ALL the rights once it is finalized and their family is legally exactly as any bio family. Once the adoptee is an adult they should have the same legal rights to their birth record as every other person raised within their bio family. Period. I am in the minority in the adoption reform community in that I do not believe the birth parents should have legal access to the adoptees name if it was a close adoption, unless the adult adoptee gives consent. However, I will alway support access to all records for the adult adoptee since they never had a say in the legal proceeding and it is their legal record.
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  12. #42
    Elite Member stella blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sluce View Post
    The "sheer curiosity" perspective is used by those who have a vested interest in keeping records sealed. It's a way to demean an adult adoptee for wanting to know the basic information that the rest of us take for granted. My opinion about all of this changed when I sat with a woman in her 40s, as she saw an old tattered photo of her now deceased birth mother and sobbed as she she explained that no one could possibly understand what it is like to for the first time in her life, see someone else who looked like her and feel that genetic connection.



    I am not aware of any country that mandates open adoption. Research is showing it is in the best interest of all parties, but no one is legally required to enter into an open adoption. However, if you agree to an open adoption there must be legal protection for all parties or we will keep getting the cases where prospective adoptive parents agree to ongoing contact, and then once the adoption is finalized they back out. They are then breaking the agreement with the biological parents who would not have selected them to parent their child. Adoptive parents never have less rights. They have ALL the rights once it is finalized and their family is legally exactly as any bio family. Once the adoptee is an adult they should have the same legal rights to their birth record as every other person raised within their bio family. Period. I am in the minority in the adoption reform community in that I do not believe the birth parents should have legal access to the adoptees name if it was a close adoption, unless the adult adoptee gives consent. However, I will alway support access to all records for the adult adoptee since they never had a say in the legal proceeding and it is their legal record.
    I don't have a problem with the adoptive parents having all the rights. They've taken on all the responsibility. And what exactly is the point of a closed adoption if it can just be opened back up later? I don't think either party should be able to do anything about it after the fact. Maybe there could be some sort of clearinghouse for people who want to be connected to have the option, but it would need to have the consent of both parties.

    I'm not going into details here, but let's just say I have a reason for feeling the way I do about it.

  13. #43
    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    And have I have hundreds of first hand experiences for feeling the way I do. I get to see the damaged caused to all sides of the adoption triad due to shame due to enforced secrecy. Are you a parent, Stella? If so, do you actually believe that you have all the rights over your child even once they become adults, and that they should have to go through a clearinghouse for all their life decisions?

    I often feel adoptive parents are most harmed by the closed system. They have to raise a child without the benefit of knowing basic medical backgrounds the rest of us take for granted. When their child acts in a way that is not within the norm for that family, they don't know where this behavior comes from, and do not know how to respond. They have society telling them they are "saviors" for taking in this poor child when in fact they are the lucky the ones. But raising a kid when the title of savior has been bestowed upon you is hard. Who can really be that good. Society told them they could just take this kid in, and pretend it is just like a biological child, so when the child expressed natural curiosity they perceive it to be a failure of their parenting instead of a healthy response to being raised by someone who did not birth you. If the child becomes an adult and dares to search they feel like they failed which really sucks.

    Adoption is wonderful for those who need the process - if it is handled with honesty and the needs of the child, who will become an adult, are placed first.
    Last edited by sluce; March 27th, 2015 at 12:09 AM.
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    don't be so fucking nosy adoptees. it's sheer curiosity to want to know where you came from, your genetic medical history, etc.....just be grateful someone wanted you. sheesh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    .....just be grateful someone wanted you. sheesh.
    and you weren't scraped and autoclaved.

    stella, whatever happened to you must have been bad to make you feel this way.

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