Camille Paglia: White middle-class women identify with Jennifer Aniston's humiliation - Page 4

moomies · December 16th, 2006, 04:42 PM

I don't think most anyone could refuse to marry a royal when proposed/arranged...esp back in the olden days.

glamazon · December 17th, 2006, 12:00 AM

I think the villain is really Brad Pitt. Angelina didn't have any commitment to Jen, Brad did. I think he's the one who really needs to own up to anything.

Also, everyone like Brangelina because they are pretty and they do charity. That's it. that's why I like them. I don't mind Jen. A., but she never got me like Angelina did. And I wasn't a fan of friends either...but maybe Camille is right - I'm a working class black woman, so I guess I wouldn't like her! LOLOL!

ediebrooks · December 17th, 2006, 06:51 AM

See, Glamazon, you prove what I previously stated:people like Angelina because she is beautiful, and for that reason they make excuses for her. I'm sure if she killed someone, her fans would say the victim was to blame:"He should not have been standing in the way of Angelina's bullet".

UndercoverGator · December 17th, 2006, 07:06 AM

I read several places that Di did start making noise about backing out of the wedding a few times and her family told her it was too late for that, something about her face already being on the tea towels.

As much as I admired the late Princess I think she made a lot of her own misery by having the wrong childish expectations when she married Prince Charles. Not excusing what he did, it was terribly wrong as well, but I think there is some fault on both sides.

And I think Camille got it wrong, speaking as a white middle class American woman I feel not sympathy for Chiniston. Whatever sympathy I might have initially felt for her was erased once there were constant stories in the press about "The Divorce" and how she felt utterly betrayed. Even if these stories were coming from one ill advised comment per story it still comes across as gratuitous whining. She would have looked much classier and come across better had Chin limited her discussion of "The Divorce" to Oprah and VF.

I know this makes me in the minority but from the first moment I heard Brad crying that he wanted kids and it wasn't a priority for Chin I was hoping he would dump her ass and find someone who would give him a houseful. What type of wife puts her husband's deepest emotional needs aside to chase a movie career? Not someone who really cares about their partner's happiness.

Don't care of Angie gives him anal or if he's dumb as a rock, I hope they end up with twenty kids and stay happily shackled together forever. They obviously both meet deep needs in either other.

ediebrooks · December 17th, 2006, 07:27 AM

But what if Jennifer Aniston was not able to have kids for some reason?

Anyway, I don't want to argue, but I am sick of 1)Brangelina 2)their oh-so-cute growing family and 3) Jennifer Aniston. I defend Jennifer Aniston, but I don't even really care for her that much;it's just I can stomach her a lot more than I can stomach Angelina Bobina. If it weren't for the constant updates we get on these folks' activities, I would probably have NO opinion on the whole Brangelina vs. Jen saga.

UndercoverGator · December 17th, 2006, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ediebrooks

But what if Jennifer Aniston was not able to have kids for some reason?

Anyway, I don't want to argue, but I am sick of 1)Brangelina 2)their oh-so-cute growing family and 3) Jennifer Aniston. I defend Jennifer Aniston, but I don't even really care for her that much;it's just I can stomach her a lot more than I can stomach Angelina Bobina. If it weren't for the constant updates we get on these folks' activities, I would probably have NO opinion on the whole Brangelina vs. Jen saga.

If Jenn couldn't have kids for some reason that might put the whole thing in a different light. But it looks like Brad would have been happy with adoption. There's just too much we don't really know about the situation. Easy to armchair quarterback it from here but only the three of them know the truth.

Totally agree with your second paragraph. Who freaking cares what these people do. If it wasn't for the media and GR I wouldn't have any opinion of these rather screwed up people..

aabbcc · December 17th, 2006, 07:52 AM

This seems really one-sided to me ... again it's all about the man and keeping him happy. He wasn't the only one in the relationship ... why is all the focus on his happiness?

I will say it again ... no woman should be expected to pop out kids for anyone. Just because we can have them doesn't mean we have to have them. And just because a woman doesn't want or like kids doesn't mean for one minute that she doesn't love her partner or want him to be happy.

If someone has a child that they didn't want or weren't ready for, everyone ends up unhappy, and the relationship will still crash. So Jennifer couldn't really win no matter what.

But who cares about her as long as the man is happy, eh? Because the man is the only one who matters in a marriage. Sheesh.

PrettyGirl · December 17th, 2006, 08:34 AM

That argument is so illogical. Sure, it's okay not to want children but it's NOT okay when you marry someone with the understanding that one day you will have children and you both want them. If one partner then starts delaying that process for some unknown date or perhaps even says "I'm not sure if I really want children" or "I don't want children", then that's a very REAL problem. It's not a simple disagreement you can look over like not picking up your socks or not taking out the trash. It's a life decision that the spouse who does want children either decides to look over and stay with this person or walks out. Personally, as a person who definitely wants children, there is NO WAY on earth I would ever remain childless for anyone. If I married someone and then 7 years into our relationship I was still waiting for them to make up their mind to give me a child (because it takes two), I'd be VERY upset. I mean, come on, we're not kids anymore. We are pushing 40 (or in his case, he was already in his 40's).

And just how a woman can deprive a man of a child, I've also known of men who deprive their spouses of children (or more children) and that's very upsetting to women who want kids or want more. So, you can't just blow it off and say "It wasn't up to Jennifer to make Brad happy". That's totally selfish. For something as serious as that yeah, you either decide to have a child or you let this man go if he feels that strongly about it. If you don't want to have kids, that's fine, but it is totally unfair to deprive someone else of that dream if that's not what they initially chose and they married you thinking you were going to have kids...and then for you to think "Too bad, too sad, you married me and you stick with me no matter what. If you don't stick with me you're an asshole." That's wrong. You're an ass**** for marrying someone who wanted children and then you changed that big life decision on them. You should've married someone who either didn't want any or already had their own.

And this argument that Brad somehow expected Jennifer to pop a kid out just on a whim is stupid. He was with her 7 years, married to her for 5. I think the guy did give her time and wasn't expecting her to do it the first year they were married. I think he was patient. He did let her finish 'Friends' and work on her career. And let's face it, had she really wanted to, she could've worked on her career and still had a baby. Catherine Zeta-Jones did it....Jada Pinkett did it....so many working actress having children and it doesn't hinder their careers. I think this whole 'my career' issue was an excuse if that's what Jen was telling Brad. It wasn't just about her career. I don't think she wanted children and probably not sure if she did or when she would be ready.

aabbcc · December 17th, 2006, 08:45 AM

And again everyone assumes that it came as a complete surprise to Brad that Jen didn't want kids, that she led him on and let him believe she did ... none of us were there and knows for sure that was the case. It is entirely possible that Brad knew she doesn't like kids and married her hoping she would change her mind down the road. Personally, I think that's what happened ... if you're with someone for that long, you're going to have some idea about their views regarding children. In the end, she didn't change her mind and that doesn't make her a selfish person who doesn't care about her spouse. It just means that Brad, at the time, made the wrong choice for himself.

PrettyGirl · December 17th, 2006, 09:43 AM

^Are we speaking about the same women who publicly said to Vanity Fair and the Oprah show that she DID want children? She has continuously said she does want children yet she doesn't have them. So I think it's fair to assume that if that's what she's saying in public, it's also what she was telling Brad, that she did want kids. Unless she miraculously changed her mind after they broke up.

I think it's really far-fetched to think Brad Pitt married her knowing she didn't want kids and he thought he could change her mind. I think it's quite the opposite. This man was under the impression that he was going to have a family with Jennifer Aniston and he married her because he loved her and wanted children with her. Fast forward 7 years later and still there were no children. I find it really unlikely to think that they dated and married and all that time she was saying 'Nope, I don't want kids or I don't think I want any' and then when they break up she's going to say on camera to the world "Yes, I DO want children?.

Saying something and actually doing it are two different things. But to be 37 years old and not being sure if you're going to do it or not (have kids) is sort of pushing it. As women we don't have an indefinite amount of time to have kids. It's sad, but it's fact.

irishpig · December 17th, 2006, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UndercoverGator

I know this makes me in the minority but from the first moment I heard Brad crying that he wanted kids and it wasn't a priority for Chin I was hoping he would dump her ass and find someone who would give him a houseful. What type of wife puts her husband's deepest emotional needs aside to chase a movie career? Not someone who really cares about their partner's happiness.

Almost any woman's career, movie or not, suffers when they have children. Bosses start to question your commitment to your job. If you have to go on extended bedrest, you will be temporarily replaced, and when you get back from maternity leave, your old job may not be available...they just have to provide you with a comprable job. More often than not (and almost always according to the women I know) if a child is sick, mom takes off from work. Promotion that requires travel? Sorry...I have to be around for recitals, sports practices, and school events. And in Hollywood...women's careers routinely end when aging begins, so I can't blame Jen for wanting to maybe put off having kids for a few more years. If her career is important to her, and she truly enjoyed it, why shouldn't she try to get a few more years out of it? She'll have plenty of time to raise kids after she is off the shelf. Maybe he should have cared more about HER deepest emotional needs before he appeared in a magazine spread weeks after he left her, posing as a 1950's family with Angelina. I bet him f***ing Angelina on the set of their movie also did wonders for Jen's happiness.

BTW...I'm not trying to attack you, because i do truly enjoy your posts. But the phrasing of that paragraph just struck a nerve!

aabbcc · December 17th, 2006, 09:56 AM

The fact that she hasn't had children yet despite having the opportunity to do so says something else entirely ... there could be any number of reasons why she's holding off. Anyway, it's a good thing that she doesn't have a kid if she's truly not ready.

As far as getting married with the thought that you could change the person's mind later ... it isn't far-fetched at all. People do it every single day ... and they usually end up regretting it later.

PrettyGirl · December 17th, 2006, 10:02 AM

Well, I had a boyfriend who had 2 children from his previous marriage and it really angered me how he was in control over MY life. It was basically in his hands whether or not I'd ever be a mother and I hated that feeling. I was 35 years old and I wanted kids. He was 47 years old and had already had his. He was totally on the fence about having more, but, of course, he NEVER said "I don't want kids" because he didn't want to lose me or the relationship. You'd think people would be totally forthright about something as huge as that, but it's not always the case. They may in fact string you along for a long time because they know that if they say "I don't want to have kids" or "I don't know if I really want kids" it's going to be the end of the relationship and they're not willing to face that reality.

This ex-boyfriend of mine kept saying "Yeah, we'll do it" but when push came to shove, he was really careful about having any 'accidents'. He was paranoid about getting me pregnant and it really bothered me. That part of his life had been fulfilled (fatherhood) but he was totally selfish and only thinking about himself. He had his children but I didn't have mine. It was emotional blackmail. In my eyes, you either love me and we're going to do this or we're not. But don't keep playing these games on me. He kept making excuses about it 'not being the right time yet' or how it was going to happen when he was ready. How much longer did I have to wait? We had been together almost 2 years. He was going on 50. Did he want me to wait till I was 38 or 39 years old and maybe unable to have kids by then? Heck, I don't even know if I can have kids. What if I have problems? That could be another year or two of fertility treatments...and I wanted at least 2 kids and this jerk was basically controlling my future. What was I supposed to do, steal his sperm? It was really upsetting and it became a huge issue for me and the cause of a lot of disagreements between us.

To this day this guy still says it WASN'T that he didn't want kids...but I guarantee you that I could go back to him today and he'd still have excuses as to how we should wait. In a nutshell my idea is this: some people just don't know what the hell they want!! lol!! They want a partner, they want a particular relationship, but they may not neccessarily want kids. Very few people actually wake up one day and think 'This is the day I'll conceive my children'. I've also learned that some people can just never make a decision about anything major in life. If they end up with children it's because they never really 'chose' it, it just happened. In the end I ended the relationship because I wasn't willing to remain childless for any man. I loved him but you know what, I rather see my children's faces one day than be this guy's girlfriend or partner. To this day I still feel that had he truly loved me and truly thought I was worth it, he would've wanted a child with me. For me it was really insulting. So, I can understand people who walk out relationships when they want kids and your partner is on the fence about it or making excuses.