Jews are 'apes' and Christians 'pigs' in books taught by British Islamic school

**shaki80** · February 7th, 2007, 01:16 PM

I'd be silly to deny that religion isn't a contributing factor, or at least the way it's being handled in muslim countries right now. They're still issuing fatwas about the silliest, most unnecessary topics right now that shoudn't even be up for discussion in the 21st century.
I just don't agree with the whole Islam = lack of progression theory, it's just a lot more complicated than that.

**Grimmlok** · February 7th, 2007, 01:18 PM

Like I said, its a bunch of things wrapped up in a cute label

**crumpet** · February 7th, 2007, 01:22 PM

But do you think that they're lagging behind mainly because they're predominantely muslim ? Not because of corrupt governments or long-term effects of colonization-which a lot of these countries have been exposed to- but because they're mainly muslim?
Yes, much in the same way this country would if we allowed Jerry Falwell or James Dobson to have complete control of every facet of life based on how their version of the world should be according to thier religion. It is worse with Muslims ,imo, because most of their societies are not secular and because the status of women lies somewhere between a cockroach and dirt. Yes, we have some Christian extremists in this country and most of us here despise them. However, if a church sanctioned the death of a woman by stoning there would be outcry and someone would go to prison. Moderate Christians do not sit quietly and allow extremists to do whatever. Even with homphobia being what it is you will go to prison if you stab a gay couple walking out of a bar. If I hate Falwell or Robertson, or even Dubya, I can say so freely without worrying that a bounty will be on my head the way it happens to people who criticize Islam. It seems to me their first course of action is to order the death of anyone who 'offends' their religion. That attitude doesn't belong in a free society and I beleive one of the reasons people walk on eggshells around Muslims isn't out of some cultural respect or deference, but because they really do fear violence in reprisal but know it sounds so biased to say so, so they just pretend to be 'culturally sensitive'. Even if only 15-25% of all Muslims are radical that still equates to millions of people who want you dead and the 'moderates' are suspiciously quiet about it.

**xoxo** · February 7th, 2007, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by sputnik

there is no such thing as a 'true' religion, not in islam, not in christianity, not in judaism. they are all interpretations and everyone is convinced that their particular brand of religion is the 'true' one. the only difference is that some interpretations are less dangerous than others.

exactly...it is frightening how strongly entrenched the beliefs are..

**Grimmlok** · February 7th, 2007, 01:37 PM

This is why religion is a bad idea. Stupid people get ahold of it.

**xoxo** · February 7th, 2007, 01:41 PM

^^i totally agree. certain teachings by jesus and buddha are very true/helpful in making one's way through the illusion, but they are mostly misinterpreted and ritualized to the point where even the original message hidden within is lost.
i think religion is going to fall..they say all egoic structures will collapse and i think religion will too..one day people will look back in total amazement at the brainwashing/misguided entity that is religion today...but sadly i think it will hundreds and hundreds of years before that happens.

**shaki80** · February 7th, 2007, 02:00 PM

Even if only 15-25% of all Muslims are radical that still equates to millions of people who want you dead and the 'moderates' are suspiciously quiet about it.

I definitely agree that moderate muslims aren't speaking as loudly as they should be but I don't think it's that "suspicious", I find it understandable to a certain degree. I don't think it's because most muslims support the actions of jihadists but because moderate muslims make just as good targets for terrorists as "westerners" do. It's pretty common to get labeled as an infidel, recieve death threats, etc...if you call yourself a progressive muslim and dare criticize your government and/or the country's religious authorities. However, when they do speak out I don't think the media gives them nearly as much coverage as they do extremists, considering the latter make for more "exciting" news. For example, during the whole danish cartoons silliness, I knew a lot of ppl who thought it was foolish to get all worked up over something so ridiculous,complete with all the threatening slogans, letters,demonstrations etc..but what were they supposed to do? Go out in counter demonstrations to prove their point and get enough media coverage? I don't have any better suggestions but I just don't think it would've ended pleasantly for them.

**Grimmlok** · February 7th, 2007, 02:05 PM

Counter demonstrations would be a nice, big first step. it would give moderates a visibility they lack right now.

**princesspink** · February 7th, 2007, 03:58 PM

Its absolutely disgusting. Maybe the world would be a better place if there was no religion. It would be even better if they knew there is no God.

Originally Posted by crumpet

If I hate Falwell or Robertson, or even Dubya, I can say so freely without worrying that a bounty will be on my head the way it happens to people who criticize Islam.

Bounty on the head aside, you would be screwed if you were a Dixie chick.

I agree with most of the things you've said. Having said that, western societies aren't extremely free or fair either (punishment for Holocaust denial, banning the burqa etc.), but they don't go to the extent that the countries we are talking about do.

And I wouldn't blame their regressiveness on Islam. There was a time when scholars like Maimonides ( a Jew) from escaped persecution from the Western world to get protection from the Muslims in Constantinople. Then, people must have thought that Muslims were free-thinking people.

Turkey, being mainly Islamic embraced Secularism many years ago. i think there is enough proof to believe that the reason they allow such unacceptable actions should not be attributed to their religion.

Peace.

**Lobelia** · February 7th, 2007, 04:06 PM

Religion is just one way for the worst aspects of mankind to surface. Take away religion, and they'll just resurface in another way, and find another excuse to invade, suppress & kill.

Unlike some of you, I'm not psychic enough to predict either the end or the preservation of religion, but I seriously doubt that there will come a time on earth when no one believes in God. Those of you who don't believe in God may not fully appreciate how strong this belief is in others. Religion is an often-unfortunate accessory to this belief, but it's not all bad.

**princesspink** · February 7th, 2007, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Lobelia

Unlike some of you, I'm not psychic enough to predict either the end or the preservation of religion, but I seriously doubt that there will come a time on earth when no one believes in God. Those of you who don't believe in God may not fully appreciate how strong this belief is in others. Religion is an often-unfortunate accessory to this belief, but it's not all bad.

I doubt there will be such a time too, because I do see how strongly people believe in God, everyday. I don't see it ending at all, and that scares me.

About religion, it might not be all bad(or is it?), but I really really don't see anything good coming out of it either. And I say that genuinely, not just to sound cynical.

**Lobelia** · February 7th, 2007, 04:31 PM

There is a lot of good about it. And others believing in God shouldn't scare you..... fanatics who use God's name to do evil things should scare you.

**Mira** · February 7th, 2007, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by sputnik

there is no such thing as a 'true' religion, not in islam, not in christianity, not in judaism. they are all interpretations and everyone is convinced that their particular brand of religion is the 'true' one. the only difference is that some interpretations are less dangerous than others.

I did not say that Islam is a true religion.

Let me put it more clearly and specifically: Wahhabism is not an accurate reflection of the precepts of Islam. Wahhabism is a fanatical sect in Islam, with its own interpretation of the Qur'an.

Better?

And by the way, I think the asshats in that school should be regulated and barred from teaching what they do. But we can't legislate religious behavior any more than we can legislate sexual or any other human behavior.

**sputnik** · February 7th, 2007, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Grimmlok

Counter demonstrations would be a nice, big first step. it would give moderates a visibility they lack right now.

tariq ramadan is a pretty good example of that, he's one of the most important muslim scholars out there right now.

i don't agree with everything he says but at least he's helping to promote a dialogue between islam and the west and is critical of radical islamists. he was really vocal in criticising the reactions of many muslims to the danish cartoons and the pope speech.

on a side note, the west isn't helping give moderates a voice since he was also denied a visa and therefore had to reject an offer to teach religion, conflict and peacebuilding at notre dame...

this is an article he wrote in the international herald tribune on the violent reaction to that infamous speech the pope made, where he condems muslim violence and where he calls for muslims to react not with violence that will only confirm the negative stereotypes a lot of people have about them, but with rationalism and to remind the west of the contributions muslim thought has made to western culture:
A struggle over Europe's religious identity - Editorials & Commentary - International Herald Tribune

an article he wrote in the washington post, about being barred from the US:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...092901334.html

**sputnik** · February 7th, 2007, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mira

I did not say that Islam is a true religion.

Let me put it more clearly and specifically: Wahhabism is not an accurate reflection of the precepts of Islam. Wahhabism is a fanatical sect in Islam, with its own interpretation of the Qur'an.

Better?

And by the way, I think the asshats in that school should be regulated and barred from teaching what they do. But we can't legislate religious behavior any more than we can legislate sexual or any other human behavior.

wahhabism is one of the more dangerous interpretations, that's for sure. but they are still all interpretations and i think all interpretations of religious texts and precepts are relative and their 'accuracy' varies depending on who you're asking... doesn't matter if it's the bible, torah, qu'ran... too many things come in to play - translations throughout the centuries, the subjectivity and personal opinions and agendas of the people doing the interpreting, etc...