hazeleyed honey...

[piperdiva]

I can't seem to get into the politics thread, so, about the State of Israel, it is a complicated issue to describe, so read this http://www.askmoses.com/qa_list.html?h=410

Most orthodox groups are ok with the state. The site above is orthodox. It is a small ultra orthodox group that refuses to acknowlege it (but is willing to accept welfare from the Israeli government).

[Hazeleyed_Honey]

Thank you for the info...I always get confused on why some ultra orthodox are against a Jewish state,but most of Jews are for it.

I did research on it before, and I found that it goes back to what the Torah implies and different sects of Judaism interpret it differently.

Anti-Zionism Among Jews

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Jews who criticize or oppose Zionism are usually Orthodox and maintain that Israel can only be regained miraculously. They view the present state as a blasphemous human attempt to usurp G­d's role, and they work to dismantle Israel. However, unlike many gentile anti­Zionists, they firmly believe in the Jewish right to Israel, but only at that future time of redemption. The best­known of the religious anti­Zionists are the Neturei Karta.

Two common religious grounds are typically given for anti­Zionism. One is that today's Zionism is a secular Zionism, packed with non­Jewish influences, and lacking key features like Moshiach and the rebuilt Temple. Adherents to this position are more on the non­Zionist rather than anti­Zionist side. The other reason is that the Talmud (Meseches Kesuvos, 111a), as part of a discussion of certain Torah verses mentioning oaths, states that when Israel went into the second exile, there were three vows between Heaven and Earth:

1. Israel would not "go up like a wall" [conquer Eretz Yisrael by massive force].

2. G­d made Israel swear that they would not rebel against the nations of the world [would obey the governments in the exile].

3. G­d made the non­Jews swear not to oppress Israel "too much" [translation of phrase yoter midai].

Groups accepting these positions are more on the anti­Zionist side.

The religious counter­reply to the above is that secular Zionism is a preliminary stage of religious Zionism, and that the vows no longer apply since the gentiles violated their part (by such actions as the Roman persecutions, the Spanish Inquisition and the Nazi Holocaust). The Balfour Declaration of 1917 and the United Nations partition vote of 1947 are also regarded as having given permission to the Jews to reestablish the state by the non­Jewish rulers of the area. Once this permission was granted it could not be revoked. It should also be noted that the oaths cited above are only mentioned as a side point in one place in a discussion in the Gemara, and as the viewpoint of an individual. Many people feel that they do not apply in any case.

Some Religious Zionist Jews see the formation of the secular state as accelerating the process of redemption, with themselves playing a major role in doing G­d's will by serving the state, whose creation is often seen as miraculous.

So­called "non­Zionist" Jews are pleased that Israel exists from a practical standpoint-as a haven for oppressed Jews and as a land imbued with holiness well­suited for Torah study. But they don't generally assign religious significance to the formation of the modern state, and often decry aspects of its secular culture.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...i-Zionism.html

So it is quite interesting that I find in the Torah it says that Israel should be regained by miracle. I think that is the MAIN reason those ultra Orthodox Jews are against the creation of Israel on the basis of how it happened.

I just find it interesting.

I wanted to ask...So most Jews today,what sect do they belong to???I never knew there was such a sect as Reform Judaism until I was doing research last year!So it is interesting to see Judaism has quite a few sects within it.

[piperdiva]

Thank you for the info...I always get confused on why some ultra orthodox are against a Jewish state,but most of Jews are for it.

I did research on it before, and I found that it goes back to what the Torah implies and different sects of Judaism interpret it differently.


So it is quite interesting that I find in the Torah it says that Israel should be regained by miracle. I think that is the MAIN reason those ultra Orthodox Jews are against the creation of Israel on the basis of how it happened.

I just find it interesting.

I wanted to ask...So most Jews today,what sect do they belong to???I never knew there was such a sect as Reform Judaism until I was doing research last year!So it is interesting to see Judaism has quite a few sects within it.

well, alot of religious zionists believe that winning the war in 1948 WAS indeed a miracle, because they were so impossibly out numbered and out gunned.

How many sects? Too many! Reform is the biggest in America. What that basically means, go to shul on high holidays, then resume your secular cheeseburger eating life all other times. Conservative? Heck, i don't even know what that means, and neither do they. There are lots of various orthodox sects. Even though customs may vary, the synagogue services are all the same, as are the holidays. Thus, a jew from one sect can go to a service from another sect and not feel out of place or confused.