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Thread: Two Indian sisters (aged 14 and 15) gang-raped, killed and hanged from a tree

  1. #31
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    ^^^^
    i think you're missing the point, mo. i think even if you find data and 'prove' that there are more rapes in india than in developed countries, the underlying gender issues are the same across cultures, the difference is that in the west maybe we're a few years ahead in the debate and have made a few advances in terms of women's status and punishing rape. but not enough to alter the underlying issue which is the inequality between men and women, and blaming the victim when a rape occurs (whether it's the clothes she wore or the fact that she got drunk or thatever) because men are somehow incapable of controlling their impulses and if women weren't sluts, they wouldn't get raped.
    but even though in the west we may be a few years ahead, rapes are still severely underreported, and in cases where they are reported, the police and the courts are horribly ill-equipped to deal with rape victims, often treating them like shit, discouraging them from filing charges, blaming them for their attacks, etc. and conviction rates are pretty shockingly low.
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  2. #32
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    I don't know if I would agree with all of that comparison. Rapes are under reported here but they are probably vastly under reported there.

    To take a look at another crime stat, The United States has lots of senseless murders but it is vastly preferable and safer to live here than San Pedro Sula, Honduras. The thing is concrete per capita murder statistics are easier to compare

  3. #33
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    No one is denying that. The point is that, whether it's Indian society or the US, both societies are variations of of the same patriarchal model where women have been undervalued, underrepresented, attacked and raped and then blamed for their own attacks. That has been humanity's 'model' for thousands of women. Whether it's Christian society or Muslim society or Hinduist society, women's bodies and their sexual activity are the subject of concern for the entire society, rather than a question of personal choice for every women. Virginity is highly valued as a sign of purity, slut shaming is alive and well, and whether it's an honor killing or a disgruntled husband killing his wife for threatening to leave him, or a girl getting bottled in the face in a club for refusing to dance with a guy, the point is, women everywhere have to fear for their lives for their sexual/romantic choices.

    mo, I know this is hard for you but forget the statistics for a second, this is about societal values and norms and the inequality women have been subjected to for thousands of years and that has only been questioned and opposed for maybe century, way less in some countries.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  4. #34
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    I think it's only hard for me because I have a lot of female family members who came from countries that were demonstrably more oppressive to women than the United States. If someone says that a particular country is really, really bad for women, it doesn't mean that everywhere else is perfect. Things are tough all over - no place is perfect. But people vote with their feet - they immigrate because they have made the determination that even though the US economy is not great, it is often way better than another particular country. Or even though women are subjected to discrimination or have lower pay in the US compared to men that it is not as skewed toward men as it is in their country of origin and they the are willing to leave their country to improve their situation.
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  5. #35
    Elite Member ConstanceSpry's Avatar
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    Not surprised by this at all. Life sucks for girls and women in so many countries. Officially, 20% of all annual honor killings are committed in India. But that is supposedly a vastly under-reported number.
    'I had to get rid of the kid. The cat was allergic.'

  6. #36
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    Mo, no ofence, but you're still missing the point. Yes, some places are objectively worse for women but the point is that the underlying issues and gender inequality are pretty much the same everywhere.
    You'll see when your kids are older and start going out, and you'll worry about your daughter walking home by herself way more than you will about your son, because even in safer societies, women have to fear violence way more than men do. You'll worry about people spiking her drinks, about dates becoming aggressive, etc.
    because let's face it, there are lots of men who feel entitled to women's bodies, and that's as much the case in the developing world as it is in the US. And it will continue to be the case as long as those underlying issues of gender inequality and objectification of women don't change.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  7. #37
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    It's not really about 'countries' that are oppressive Mo in their legal framework, it's about women and the dangers they face all over the world from men as a group. Women are really no safer from rape and physical abuse here in the US than they are anywhere else. We also just last week had a nutbag shooting them down in the street because he couldn't get one to fuck him.
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  8. #38
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Women are really no safer from rape and physical abuse here in the US than they are anywhere else.
    I think the problem I'm having is that the above statement is very sweeping. Are women subjected to as much rape, physical abuse and oppression as they are in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia? Do girls in the United States, face the prospect of acid thrown in their faces or get blown up if they try to go school, (Afghanistan), or get kidnapped in groups of 100 while they are at school (Nigeria). Are they not even allowed to drive (Saudi Arabia)?

  9. #39
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    I think the problem you're having here is you have a penis..........
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    All of God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.


    If I wanted the government in my womb I'd fuck a Senator

  10. #40
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I think the problem I'm having is that the above statement is very sweeping. Are women subjected to as much rape, physical abuse and oppression as they are in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia? Do girls in the United States, face the prospect of acid thrown in their faces or get blown up if they try to go school, (Afghanistan), or get kidnapped in groups of 100 while they are at school (Nigeria). Are they not even allowed to drive (Saudi Arabia)?


    No. Probably not. But again you're still missing the fucking point. Think outside the pie chart, dude. Even if we're subjected to less of it the here than in india, doesn't mean there isn't a huge fucking problem. You're not a woman so you don't know what it's like to wonder if the guy walking behind you is just walking or if he's following you, so you mentally prepare to run if you have to, reach into your purse to grab your keys to use as a weapon. You don't wonder if the guy who bumped into you for longer than a bump usually lasts, did so accidentally or on purpose. I bet you don't have many male friends who have been raped. You've never had a guy call you a whore or get aggressive because you turned them down for a date. You don't watch your drink like a hawk in a busy bar because you're worried you might get roofied. The list is endless. And I'm an educated, privileged white woman. It gets worse the further down you are on the social ladder. So don't fight us on this, Mo. Because I'm sorry but you don't have a fucking clue.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  11. #41
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    No. Probably not. But again you're still missing the fucking point. Think outside the pie chart, dude. Even if we're subjected to less of it the here than in india, doesn't mean there isn't a huge fucking problem. You're not a woman so you don't know what it's like to wonder if the guy walking behind you is just walking or if he's following you, so you mentally prepare to run if you have to, reach into your purse to grab your keys to use as a weapon. You don't wonder if the guy who bumped into you for longer than a bump usually lasts, did so accidentally or on purpose. I bet you don't have many male friends who have been raped. You've never had a guy call you a whore or get aggressive because you turned them down for a date. You don't watch your drink like a hawk in a busy bar because you're worried you might get roofied. The list is endless. And I'm an educated, privileged white woman. It gets worse the further down you are on the social ladder. So don't fight us on this, Mo. Because I'm sorry but you don't have a fucking clue.
    I'm not fighting anyone. Like I said earlier, I'm not saying it's perfect here, or even close to perfect. I'm also not saying that equality and rights for women isn't a huge problem that needs to be worked on everywhere. I'm saying that it is safer here, with better economic opportunities than over "there". I know that the problem of discrimination against women needs to be worked on everywhere. And worked on more here (the US) than in a place like Norway, or even Canada. But it is more advanced than India, or Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan. That, however, is not to say that you cannot make an assessment that a particular country is a fairer and safer place for woman than another particular place.
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  12. #42
    Elite Member whitetigeress's Avatar
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    Until the day I stop hearing of so many rapes and gang rapes in the news, I feel a lot safer walking down my street than if I were to walk down somewhere in India.
    Sad but true. I think this is the point Mo was trying to make.
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  13. #43
    Elite Member kasippu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I think the other issue is that this combines with a perception that India has a low regard for women in general. You have an untouchables underclass that police are reluctant to protect. You have things like very high abortion rates for girls relative to boys. Arranged marriages. Dowries and threats to the bride's family if the dowry isn't big enough. All of that combines to make it seem like India would be a really oppressive place for women compared to other countries.
    Low regard for women for sure.
    One woman I know found her husband with her 13 old niece. There was absolutely nothing she could do about it.
    Idiot I am, I suggested to report him as a pedo. She looked like I was crazy.
    My secretary is marrying next week, she has yet to meet the guy. This is not a girl from a deprived background. Next week she needs to F a guy for the rest of her life because her parents told her so.
    Once I had an accident and the guy, who drove straight into me, said 'your fault, you are a woman, you can't drive'

  14. #44
    Elite Member *Kat*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitetigeress View Post
    Until the day I stop hearing of so many rapes and gang rapes in the news, I feel a lot safer walking down my street than if I were to walk down somewhere in India.
    Sad but true. I think this is the point Mo was trying to make.
    I agree. I feel a lot safer taking the bus to work everyday and walking back home alone at night here than I ever did back home in India (I live in southern California). I understand rape is a huge problem everywhere. But the number of times I've been truly afraid in the US pales in comparison to the daily struggle I had back home when random men just straight up followed me home. And as I've mentioned before, this happened with most of my friends and acquaintances.

  15. #45
    Elite Member whitetigeress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasippu View Post
    Low regard for women for sure.
    One woman I know found her husband with her 13 old niece. There was absolutely nothing she could do about it.
    Idiot I am, I suggested to report him as a pedo. She looked like I was crazy.
    My secretary is marrying next week, she has yet to meet the guy. This is not a girl from a deprived background. Next week she needs to F a guy for the rest of her life because her parents told her so.
    Once I had an accident and the guy, who drove straight into me, said 'your fault, you are a woman, you can't drive'
    This is what fires me up. My insides are screaming "YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!". I'm sorry but sitting down with the mouth shut allows it to continue on. When I heard of the second gang rape earlier this year, I wanted to visit the temples in my town and tell the gurus WTF are they doing just sitting on their asses when the women; mothers, sisters, daughters of their country are being treated like cow dung. Hell, cow dung is probably treated better! I was furious. But I'm ashamed to say, I'm a white woman with zero ties to that community so I did nothing. So sad because this has gone on too far for too long.
    I have absolute respect for culture, religion and tradition but... only when it harms no one. For example, if a woman is to wear a burka then by all means so do but don't fukin' whip her. Don't rape her.
    Isn't there anything to be done? It'll have to be on a global scale with powerful people of influence to help make a change for Indian women everywhere. This could set a monumental precedent.

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