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Thread: Police to interview Burke Ramsey RE: JonBenet. Possible break in the case?

  1. #76
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McJag View Post
    If you had read enough, you would know. The device used on her was something only a deranged mind could dream up. Everything points to a sexual sadist. And a practiced one.
    They used a garrott? Then, not only a sexual sadist. They are used in Europe as silent killers

    A garrote or garrote vil (a Spanish word; alternative spellings include garotte and garrotte) is a handheld weapon, most often referring to a ligature of chain, rope, scarf, wire or fishing line used to strangle someone. The term especially refers to an execution device but is sometimes used in assassination, because it can be completely silent. In addition, the garrote is used by some military units. The garrote was employed in Thuggee, whose practitioners used a yellow scarf called a Rumaal. A garrote can be made out of many different materials, including ropes, tie wraps, fishing lines, nylon, and even guitar strings, telephone cord and piano wire.

    Some incidents have involved a stick used to tighten the garrote; the Spanish name actually refers to that very rod, so it is a pars pro toto where the eponymous component may actually be absent. In Spanish, the name can also be applied to a rope and stick used to compress a member as a torture device or to reanimate the victim.[1]
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    Elite Member NoNoRehab's Avatar
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    33 years as a homicide detective with a high success rate speaks volumes and does not sound like a man who can be bought and sold.
    That Smit was on salary with the Ramseys for years is a fact. You may not want to believe it, but it's true.

    I've yet to see any evidence of an intruder, much less the "mounds and mounds" of supposed intruder evidence. The cellar window? John Ramsey admitted (to Lou Smit, no less!) that he was the one who broke it several months prior, which accounts for the broken glass as well as the dust and cobwebs (yes, the window had been broken, but a long time ago).

    The Hi-Tic boot print? Was announced in 2002 by the Boulder PD as belonging to Burke Ramsey, who owned a pair of Hi-Tec hiking boots, and was unrelated to the murders.

    The "unidentified" palm print? Has been publicly identified, again in 2002, as belonging to Melinda Ramsey and being unrelated to the murder. That was announced in 2002 by the Boulder PD and the Ramseys' attorney.

    The stun gun? Never existed and was made up by Lou Smit, who never saw JonBenet's body and has no expertise in the area.

    To believe that an intruder murdered JonBenet, I would have to believe that said intruder:
    -broke flawlessly into the Ramsey home, then spent hours there undetected writing several drafts of a long, rambling, multi-page note using Patsy's pen and paper.
    -Then this monstrous killer realized he forgot any weapons or restraints, so he wandered around the house collecting household items like a paintbrush to use as weapons.
    -Then the intruder hid undetected while the family came home and went to bed.
    -Said monstrous child killer then snuck into JonBenet's room and took her for a little pre-murder snack down in the kitchen (pineapple from a bowl with her and Burke's prints on it was in the kitchen and pineapple was found in her stomach, ingested shortly before she died. The parents always denied giving JonBenet pineapple, knowledge of where the bowl came from, and claimed she was asleep when they got home and never got up).
    -Said killer then killed JonBenet, took her into her bathroom, washed her and redressed her (her clothes found in the bathroom sink), carefully wrapped her in a blanket and took her downstairs to an obscure room in the basement/
    -The killer then left his carefully practiced, rambling note on the steps of the house asking for ransom but then didn't bother to take his only bargaining tool (JonBenet) with him.
    -The killer also somehow managed to get the sweater Patsy had worn on Christmas Day (and the day after), take fibers from it and tie them into the knot used on the garrotte, place fibers on the sticky side of the duct tape used on JonBenet's mouth, in the paintbrush caddy where the "weapon" came from and where a piece of it was found, and on the blanket covering JonBenet's body. Since Patsy wore the sweater at the Christmas party and again the following morning, the intruder would have had to sneak into the bedroom where Patsy claimed she had undressed (if you believe she slept that night at all) and grabbed her sweater.
    -Said intruder was so considerate that, after planting his fiber evidence, he kindly put Patsy's sweater back upstairs so that she could wear it again.
    -He then left the house flawlessly, all without anyone in the house hearing any activity from either him or JonBenet, despite having gone in several rooms and several floors of the house.
    Last edited by NoNoRehab; October 12th, 2010 at 06:11 PM.
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  3. #78
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoNoRehab View Post
    That Smit was on salary with the Ramseys for years is a fact. You may not want to believe it, but it's true.

    I've yet to see any evidence of an intruder, much less the "mounds and mounds" of supposed intruder evidence. The cellar window? John Ramsey admitted (to Lou Smit, no less!) that he was the one who broke it several months prior, which accounts for the broken glass as well as the dust and cobwebs (yes, the window had been broken, but a long time ago).

    The Hi-Tic boot print? Was announced in 2002 by the Boulder PD as belonging to Burke Ramsey, who owned a pair of Hi-Tec hiking boots, and was unrelated to the murders.

    The "unidentified" palm print? Has been publicly identified, again in 2002, as belonging to Melinda Ramsey and being unrelated to the murder. That was announced in 2002 by the Boulder PD and the Ramseys' attorney.

    The stun gun? Never existed and was made up by Lou Smit, who never saw JonBenet's body and has no expertise in the area.
    Wasn't a backdoor unlocked, though?

    The other thing with the accusation that Patsy or John did it and/or were some kind of sadists: aren't people like that usually habitual/repeat offenders and would not have committed a one-time grievous offense? They would be compelled by their inner screwed-up nature to do this to others, including Burke? Is there anything in John or Patsy's history to indicate trouble with the law or acting out violently against someone else, or acting like a predator, etc.?

  4. #79
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    The behavior of the Ramsey's is often said to have been odd, but what is 'normal' when your child found dead in your home? I think few (thankfully) can really understand what these people were going through.
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    Elite Member NoNoRehab's Avatar
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    People react in different ways, but I think that distraught parents who truly believed their child was kidnapped would not immediately and brazenly ignore the "ransom demands." I don't mean calling the police - I mean calling a ton of friends and non-LE people over despite the fact that the ransom note claims the kidnappers were "watching" the house and would kill JonBenet if they saw that the Ramseys called anyone.

    I think that parents who truly believed their child was kidnapped would be nervously sitting by the phone, awaiting the phone calls the ransom note said would come, not (like John) apparently totally unconcerned and making plans to fly out of Boulder.

    I also don't believe Patsy's story that she got up early, showered, put on makeup and then grabbed and put on the same outfit she had worn the night before. Now I admit to occasionally wearing an item that's not dirty more than once, but I have NEVER showered, put on makeup, then decided, "Hmm, what to wear? I know, I'll grab yesterday's outift from the dirty clothes hamper and put that on!" I don't believe Patsy - wealthy and well-known clean freak - did that either. I don't think she slept at all that night (the police also found Patsy's side of the bad made up and apparently not slept in).
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  6. #81
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    Who forgets they fed their child pineapple? What kind of kidnapper writes a novel for a ransom note, while parents who might have weapons sleep feet from me? What kind of kidnapper sits a kid down and feeds them pineapple? Why would JonBenet eat pineapple with a stranger?

    Why did Patsy, Miss All About Appearances admit to putting size twelve underwear on JonBenet that night?

    Patsy, Miss ALL About Appearances, wore dirty clothes from the floor from the party the night before, really? Or did she sleep in that outfit?

    Neighbors heard a girls scream that night, her own parents did not?

    The ransom note. Patsy was never eliminated as the writer, and she should have minded her p's and

    's.

    (one of the q's is written by the ransom note author. the other, a previous exemplar from Patsy, nonsolicited, meaning written prior to the crime.)

    Too many unanswered questions, I know who I lean towards for this crime, and it is not a strnager/intruder.

    I believe whoever killed her was in the house night, and was not intruding at all, but lived there/was invited in, imo.

    What a shame the Ramsey's never gave the police their cell phone records from the day of and the day after the crime. Innocent parents tend to want to eliminate themselves immediately. I understand lawyering up, but stonewalling on important evidence?

    What happened to the foundation the Ramsey's set up after this crime?

    Why did neitherJohn nor Patsy freak out when the kidnappers did not call like the note said?

    Why would this family leave the body of their child and fly to Atlanta abandoning their angel?

    Just some random thoughts.

  7. #82
    Elite Member potato_chips's Avatar
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    Wow, I never knew much about this case, but after reading these threads, this is interesting! I had no idea about all the little details of this case.
    "The most important question in all of human kind is..... would you hit it or not?" ~potato_chips

  8. #83
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    DitaPage* said -

    " Pageant mothers are FAR from normal, for a start, and I 100% believe she would write that note if it meant protecting the Ramsey reputation and to keep herself out of prison, because no matter what, she would have gone down for manslaughter."

    Think about this, the Ramseys could have sent their daughter anywhere for any kind of music or dance or language lessons. They had the money to afford their daughter so many rich experiences.

    Yet Patsy paraded her mini-me around the pageant circuit. The manatees, with their middle class (at best) jobs had to watch her festoon JB with 10 grand gowns and $300-a-day salon enhancements. It actually makes me feel sorry for the manatees to think of Patsy at those airport Ramada Inns prancing around in identical outfits with her mini-me.

    I'm on the fence about whether Patsy should have gone to prison for manslaughter. I'd favor a psychiatric institution, similar to where Andrea Yates ended up, for a long course of treatment.

    But I think she and John should have been charged with obstruction of justice, perjury, slander (for implicating their own friend and Mr. Santa for the murder) any damn thing. I can't forgive them for thinking that, because they were "nice (rich) people", the law and social convention do not apply to them.
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  9. #84
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoNoRehab View Post
    That Smit was on salary with the Ramseys for years is a fact. You may not want to believe it, but it's true.

    I've yet to see any evidence of an intruder, much less the "mounds and mounds" of supposed intruder evidence. The cellar window? John Ramsey admitted (to Lou Smit, no less!) that he was the one who broke it several months prior, which accounts for the broken glass as well as the dust and cobwebs (yes, the window had been broken, but a long time ago).

    The Hi-Tic boot print? Was announced in 2002 by the Boulder PD as belonging to Burke Ramsey, who owned a pair of Hi-Tec hiking boots, and was unrelated to the murders.

    The "unidentified" palm print? Has been publicly identified, again in 2002, as belonging to Melinda Ramsey and being unrelated to the murder. That was announced in 2002 by the Boulder PD and the Ramseys' attorney.

    The stun gun? Never existed and was made up by Lou Smit, who never saw JonBenet's body and has no expertise in the area.

    To believe that an intruder murdered JonBenet, I would have to believe that said intruder:
    -broke flawlessly into the Ramsey home, then spent hours there undetected writing several drafts of a long, rambling, multi-page note using Patsy's pen and paper.
    -Then this monstrous killer realized he forgot any weapons or restraints, so he wandered around the house collecting household items like a paintbrush to use as weapons.
    -Then the intruder hid undetected while the family came home and went to bed.
    -Said monstrous child killer then snuck into JonBenet's room and took her for a little pre-murder snack down in the kitchen (pineapple from a bowl with her and Burke's prints on it was in the kitchen and pineapple was found in her stomach, ingested shortly before she died. The parents always denied giving JonBenet pineapple, knowledge of where the bowl came from, and claimed she was asleep when they got home and never got up).
    -Said killer then killed JonBenet, took her into her bathroom, washed her and redressed her (her clothes found in the bathroom sink), carefully wrapped her in a blanket and took her downstairs to an obscure room in the basement/
    -The killer then left his carefully practiced, rambling note on the steps of the house asking for ransom but then didn't bother to take his only bargaining tool (JonBenet) with him.
    -The killer also somehow managed to get the sweater Patsy had worn on Christmas Day (and the day after), take fibers from it and tie them into the knot used on the garrotte, place fibers on the sticky side of the duct tape used on JonBenet's mouth, in the paintbrush caddy where the "weapon" came from and where a piece of it was found, and on the blanket covering JonBenet's body. Since Patsy wore the sweater at the Christmas party and again the following morning, the intruder would have had to sneak into the bedroom where Patsy claimed she had undressed (if you believe she slept that night at all) and grabbed her sweater.
    -Said intruder was so considerate that, after planting his fiber evidence, he kindly put Patsy's sweater back upstairs so that she could wear it again.
    -He then left the house flawlessly, all without anyone in the house hearing any activity from either him or JonBenet, despite having gone in several rooms and several floors of the house.
    Well, there is mounds of evidence and I actually wrote a "proofifesto" but it was so long it made my head spin! So, while I don't want to do that again, there is literally mounds of evidence to support an intruder theory. But, I'll try to answer the above without making my head start spinning again.

    Access to the Ramsey home:
    "at least seven windows and one door were found "open" on the morning of December 26, 1997. (SMF P 126; PSMF P 126.)" (Carnes 2003:86) "The term "open" was not defined. It is, therefore, not clear if the entrances were ajar or unlocked." (Carnes 2003:Note 31).

    You can clearly see the open window from the crime scene photos above

    An expert in stun gun crimes testified:
    "Dr. Michael Doberson, a forensic pathologist retained by defendants who examined the Boulder Coroner's autopsy report and autopsy photos, concludes the injuries to "the right side of the face as well as on the lower left back are patterned injuries most consistent with the application of a stun gun." (Report of Michael Doberson, M.D., Ph.D. at 5(A), attach. as Ex. 3 to Defs.' Ex. Vol. I, Part A.)" (Carnes 2003:22).
    JonBenet Ramsey Case Encyclopedia / The Body
    Shoe print - no match to any of the Ramsey family
    HI-TECH Print. "In particular, a shoeprint of a "HI-TEC" brand mark on the sole of a shoe was found. (SMF P 152; PSMF P 152.) Defendants do not own any "HI-TEC" brand shoes, and none of the shoes found in their home match the shoeprint marks. (SMF P 153; PSMF P 153.)" (Carnes 2003:19).
    Partial Print. "Another partial shoeprint was found near where JonBenet's body was found. (SMF P 155; PSMF P 155.) This shoeprint left only a partial logo. The owner of the "HI-TEC" shoe that made the shoeprints at the murder scene has never been identified. (SMF P 154, 155; PSMF P 154, 155.)" (Carnes 2003:19).



    Also, there was no "practice note". There was a piece of paper found with the start of "Mrs and Mrs" and that's it.

    Palm print:
    Source of Print Unknown? "In addition, on the wine-cellar door, there is a palmprint that does not match either of defendants' palmprints. (SMF P 156; PSMF P 156.) The individual to whom it belongs had not yet been identified. (SMF P 156; PSMF P 156.)" (Carnes 2003:19-20).
    The suggestion that it belonged to Melissa was from a journalist, and was unsubstantiated.

    So, the above suggests plenty of evidence of an intruder (access to basement window, where JonBenet's body was found, unidentified palm print, unidentified shoe print etc) from crime scene photographs, and court records. Not from a blogger, from rumour, or a journalist.

    I still have not seen ANY evidence that shows any of the Ramsey's had anything to do with JonBenet's death.


  10. #85
    Elite Member cmmdee's Avatar
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    Who the hell flies out of town when their child has just been found murdered? No one, that's who.

    I don't buy the "intruder" theory at all. That house had a very strange design and it was said over and over that whoever committed the crime must have had awesome knowledge of the set up/layout of the home.

    The Ramseys constantly stonewalled the police which made them look even more guilty.

    It's so sad because they totally sexualized that girl in the pagaents. Looking at her doll face and doll hair and doll clothes and doll make up makes me sad and gives me the creeps at the same time. Who f* would do that do their daughter???

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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    How many square feet was the house?

  12. #87
    Elite Member NoNoRehab's Avatar
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    The suggestion that it belonged to Melissa was from a journalist, and was unsubstantiated.
    The palm print come from Melinda (not Melissa) and that was confirmed by the Boulder PD as well as the Ramseys' attorney, Lin Wood, in the Denver Post in 2002.

    You're obviously familiar with the JonBenet Crime Encyclopedia but also a fan of selective quoting. The entry on the palm print included that info about the confirmation about the print and the only rebuttal to it was an Internet poster who tried to argue that just because the Denver Post wrote it (and sourced it!) doesn't mean it's true. Uh huh.

    Here are some other examples of your cherry-picking from the encyclopedia:

    You can clearly see the open window from the crime scene photos above
    That is NOT a crime scene photo, that is a photo that your hero Lou Smit took and put in a PowerPoint presentation. Smit was never at the crime scene and had access to the house only long after the investigation.

    A photo labeled Crime Scene Photo that was included in Lou Smit's PowerPoint presentation shows the window wide open, but this does not appear to be a crime-scene photo since John Ramsey later described the window as being open only a tiny bit. Likwise, a poor quality photo showing the window wide open and suitcase on its side is here, yet there are other crime scene photos of the suitcase on its bottom; another photo of someone standing next to the window also appears not to be taken at the crime scene, but there is no way of telling the date the photo was taken.
    The search warrants stated the following: "According to Officers French and Veitch [the first to arrive at the Ramsey house on 12/26] there were no signs of forcible entry into their residence and the Ramsey's believed that the house was locked when they went to bed." (Byfield 1997:2) According to officer Jim Byfield, Detective Linda Arndt also reported "there was no sign of forced entry to this residence" (Byfield 1997:2).
    So, the above suggests plenty of evidence of an intruder (access to basement window, where JonBenet's body was found, unidentified palm print, unidentified shoe print etc) from crime scene photographs, and court records. Not from a blogger, from rumour, or a journalist.
    Actually all your points come from Internet boards, usually with Lou Smit as the ultimate source. As mentioned, what you posted is NOT a crime photograph, it's Lou Smit's. Will you admit that?

    All my sources come from the Denver Post, court records or eyewitnesses. Point by point:
    -The basement window being wide open was debunked not only by the police who at the crime scene and the police reports, but by John Ramsey himself! He claimed he checked that same window when JonBenet was "missing." Lou Smit was never at the crime scene. He later took various photos of the house where HE opened windows, doors, moved things around, etc. long after the murder. So basically, you are rejecting the police reports and testimony from John Ramsey himself to argue in favor of Lou Smit.
    -John Ramsey admitted to Lou Smit himself that HE was the one who broke the window several months prior. That source comes FROM Lou Smit and Ramsey himself.
    -The fact that Burke Ramsey and Fleet White (a family friend) both owned Hi-Tec boots are revealed in the grand jury transcripts. In 2002, the Denver Post quoted the Boulder PD and saying that the Hi-Tec print belonged to Burke and was unrelated to the murder.
    -I already sourced the info on the palm print above.
    -The source for the stun gun theory? Why, what a surprise - Lou Smit again! Smit, who never examined JonBenet's body and has no medical training or weapons expertise, claimed he discovered something that the actual coroner who conducted JonBenet's autopsy missed.

    Smit saw some marks on the autopsy photos and concluded they were made by a stun gun. He was rebutted by police officers who actually saw the body and AirTaser, the manufacter of the stun gun Smit claimed matched the markings. Tests found that the marks on JonBenet were not the right measurements to be from any stun gun.

    Funnily enough, Lou Smit was in John Ramsey's employ when he offered the stun gun theory. Yet John Ramsey himself publicly contradicted Smit's calls to exhume JonBenet's body and "prove" that a stun gun was used on her. John - who claimed to want to do anything to find his daughter's killer - said that he wouldn't exhume her body because he didn't want to disturb her "peace," not even when his own investigator claimed that it would contain forensic evidence to break the case.

    Further irony - after Smit publicly offered the stun gun theory as evidence of an intruder, it was revealed that in their initial search, police had seized from a drawer in John and Patsy's room a weapons video on the use of stun guns. John dismissed it as something he a clerk in a "spy store" gave him and he never watched. So even if you believe the stun gun theory, you also have to admit that the only person in the case with any connection to one was John Ramsey.
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  13. #88
    Gold Member BigBen's Avatar
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    Lou Smit? More like Lou Shit!

    ...I think the mom did it. I don't have any sources and I don't care about it that much. Just what I think. RIP JonBenet.
    "Not only do we embrace it, we take it out for drinks, get it absolutely steaming drunk, leg hump it and then leave it covered in shaving foam and a stolen Chuck E Cheese outfit in its own bath with no recollection of how it got there." -Kittylady on the sad and pathetic and strange.

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    But didn't they do some new dna testing (touch dna or something)a little while ago that found dna on JonBennet's pants matching the original dna in her underwear? The dna matched no one in the house.

    Boulder PD declared Patsy innocent after that. Isn't that significant?

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    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoNoRehab View Post
    Actually all your points come from Internet boards, usually with Lou Smit as the ultimate source. As mentioned, what you posted is NOT a crime photograph, it's Lou Smit's. Will you admit that?
    Admit what??!! They most definitely ARE crime scene photos!! Smit was employed by the Boulder DA and was given access to not only the crime scene photos, but also the crime scene videos and autopsy reports. He had access to ALL the evidence and kept copies of it and took it with him when he resigned. This information comes from court transcripts and is public record.
    02011999huntervssmit.htm

    03301999huntervssmit.htm

    Check out these points:

    Defendant, Andrew Louis Smit, was formerly employed as an investigator by the Office of the District Attorney for the Twentieth Judicial District. He performed his duties in an office in the Boulder
    Criminal Justice Center, in Boulder County Colorado;
    6. Defendant, while employed by the Office of the District Attorney, was assigned to the investigation of the death of JonBenet Ramsey;
    7. As part of the investigation into the death of JonBenet Ramsey, personnel from the Boulder Police Department took photographs of the crime scene, autopsy and related evidence. In addition, the
    crime scene was video taped on the night of 12-26-96;

    8.Copies if all photographs and video tapes taken by Boulder Police Department personnel were given to the District Attorneys Office for use in the official investigation into the homicide;
    9.Said photographs and video tape, and the images they depict are the property of the Boulder Police Department and the Boulder District Attorney;
    10. As part of the investigation into the death of JonBenet Ramsey, personnel from the Boulder Police Department and the District Attorney’s Office generated reports and transcriptions of interviews with
    witnesses;

    11. In his capacity as in investigator in the Ramsey case, Defendant had access to all evidence generated in the case, including, reports, transcripts, video tapes and photographs taken by members of the Boulder Police Department;
    12. In September, 1998, Defendant resigned from his position with the District Attorney’s Office. He was requested by Plaintiff to return all property of the Boulder District Attorney that was in his possession at that time;
    13. On September 30, 1998, Defendant was given a letter by Plaintiff (exhibit A) which directed Defendant to confirm, in writing that he had returned all materials and information connected with the Ramsey investigation;
    14. Defendant was also provided a letter to return to Plaintiff, certifying that he had complied with his obligation to return all property of the District Attorney that he had in his possession. (exhibit B);
    15. At the present time, Defendant has in his possession a compact disc which contains digital copies of many, if not all, of the photographs previously described. This compact disc was produced by digitally scanning the original photographs or authorized copies of the original photographs with a digitizer. The digital images were then transferred to the compact disc;
    16. On January 22, 1999 and January 26, 1999, defendant admitted that he took the disc with him when he resigned from his employment.
    17. On the same dates, Defendant admitted to Plaintiff that he has transferred images from the compact disc to his personal computer and to other compact discs;
    18. On the same dates, Defendant acknowledged to Plaintiff that he also has in his possession or control a copy of the video tape of the crime scene;
    You can't get better evidence than the evidence Smit had access to. He was able to conclude from this evidence that an intruder killed JonBenet and the court and the DA agreed with him. There is NO EVIDENCE that any of the Ramsey's had anything to do with their daughter's death aside from pure speculation.


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