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Thread: Pennsylvania boy, 11, charged with killing pregnant woman

  1. #136
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsDark View Post
    Didn't kids used to fight and die in wars, work on farms and in factories (and if doing all this probably drink as well) once upon a time? It's only in the last hundred years or so that we've decided that they were "babies" and incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions until years after puberty. Hell, in the last few decades we've relegated 20somethings to "children" insofar as what we expect from them.

    We don't expect as much out of children anymore period. And that's part of why they're so feral and without conscience, sometimes to the point of being sociopathic. Especially when you've gone a couple of generations of these types of "kids" now raising kids of their own.
    Thank you. Exactly. We aren't living in the age of Leave it to Beaver anymore. Kids are aware of far more than people are willing to give them credit for. We live in a violent world and kids see and pick up on that, and some of them act out on it, which is why you have kids bringing guns to school, joining gangs, and shooting sleeping pregnant women in the head.

  2. #137
    Elite Member MsDark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    yeah, we used to have slaves too, and women couldn't vote. but you make it sound like the good old days were a good thing. they weren't. the vast majority of people had very rough, short and unhappy lives back then, without expectations.
    and children still fight wars and die in factories in places like africa and asia. and it's considered a bad thing.


    i guess i shouldn't be surprised anymore since a lot of people seem to share this attitude that the world is going to hell and that things were so much better before those pesky human rights came along and human thought evolved and things like children not fighting wars and dying in factories became a thing of the past... silly me.
    Er. I had relatives two generations before me who from as young as age eight had to forgo schooling to work the same manual labor jobs as grown adults...jobs that adults today would consider backbreaking...to held put food on the table for the family. Trust me, I do not agree that children fighting and dying in wars and working in factories and fields was anything close to "the good old days". But I do think the increasing extent to which children are no longer being held responsible for their actions has been a step in the wrong direction.
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  3. #138
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    no one is saying they shouldn't be held accountable. i'm not saying give this little shit a medal. i'm saying try his case in a juvenile court because he is a juvenile. i mean, we're not even talking about a kid who's 16 or 17 and close to the age limit. it's an 11 year-old. it doesn't matter what crime he committed or how grave it was.
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  4. #139
    Elite Member MsDark's Avatar
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    I think it matters that someone is dead by his hand and it was premeditated just as craftily as if committed by an adult. Maybe even more so than some adults could pull off for that matter. You're man enough to put a gun to someone's head and pull the trigger, you take what consequences come with it. At the very least, I think he should never be free to do it again. I have an 11 year old and he definitely understands right from wrong, along with the grave seriousness of even committing bodily harm to someone. Even if it is someone you "hate".
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  5. #140
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    Trial Begins for Boy, 11, Charged with Shotgun Murder

    This is no elementary school class photo.

    With rosy cheeks and a dimpled chin, 11-year-old Jordan Brown stares at the camera with eerie innocence, shadows turning his eyes pitch black.

    It's Jordan's mug shot from 2009 after he was arrested for a crime seemingly too horrific for a child to understand, must less commit.

    Police say Jordan picked up a 20-gauge youth-model shotgun and fired execution-style into the head of his father's pregnant fiancée, Kenzie Houk, as she slept in their farmhouse in New Beaver, Pa., 40 miles north of Pittsburgh.

    Both Houk, 27, and her baby died. The woman had been due to give birth in a month.

    Three years later, Jordan, now 14, is on trial in juvenile court at the Lawrence County Government Center in New Castle in a case that could keep him locked away for another seven years.

    Held in a youth detention facility since the shooting, Jordan originally was charged as an adult and faced life in prison. Now in juvenile court, the state's jurisdiction ends when he turns 21.

    With testimony beginning Tuesday in the three- to four-day trial, prosecutors suggest Jordan was jealous of Houk's unborn son. Jordan's family disputes that and says the boy was fond of both Houk and her two young daughters, who also lived with them.

    Either way, relatives say, the case can only be described as a tragedy.

    "We want him released now, because he's lost his childhood, he has maintained his innocence, and he didn't do this," Jordan's great-aunt, Cynthia Wiseman, tells WTAE-TV in Pittsburgh.

    Only lawyers and close family members are allowed in the trial because of juvenile court rules. Among them is Houk's father, who reeled as he listened to the first day's testimony by a tree trimmer who called police after the victim's 4-year-old daughter came out of the house and said, "My mommy's dead."

    "It's freaking horrible," Jack Houk told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. "It's just the start of it."

    Jordan Brown Trial Begins for Shotgun Murder : People.com

    mugshot at the link
    can't post pics because my computer's broken and i'm stupid

  6. #141
    Elite Member KrisNine's Avatar
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    So, his family is saying he didn't do it? Who do they think did it?

  7. #142
    Elite Member CornFlakegrl's Avatar
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    So they ended up trying him as a juvenille. Wonder why.

  8. #143
    Elite Member greysfang's Avatar
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    Because he was only 11 and I don't think the law supports that.
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  9. #144
    Elite Member CornFlakegrl's Avatar
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    I agree he should be tried as a juvenille, but early on they were saying he'd be tried as an adult.

  10. #145
    Elite Member greysfang's Avatar
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    No, they said they were going to have a hearing to see if he could be tried as an adult. I guess the hearing went in his favor.
    FUCK YOU AND GIVE ME MY GODDAMN VENTI TWO PUMP LIGHT WHIP MOCHA YOU COCKSUCKING WHORE BEFORE I PUNCH YOU IN THE MOUTH. I just get unpleasant in my car. - Deej

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  11. #146
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrisNine View Post
    So, his family is saying he didn't do it? Who do they think did it?
    They think Kenzie's ex-boyfriend did it. He had found out not too much earlier that her youngest daughter was not actually his biologically. So, he was furious. And apparently, he threatened her.

    However, it appears that he was excluded because the night of the murder there was snow on the ground and no foot prints leading up to the outside of the Brown house. And none coming out of the ex-boyfriend's.

    Conversely, I haven't seen anything to indicate that the shotgun blast that killed Kenzie came from Jordan Brown's gun. It doesn't seem like there was any gunpowder residue linking Jordan to the murder. Or ballistics showing that it was his gun. One of the original judges wanted to try this kid as an adult because he didn't show "remorse" for the murder. But that was because he was strenuously denying it.

    Jordan Brown has a huge base of supporters who think he is being railroaded. I think that his juvenile status has allowed the Court to keep a lot of circumstantial evidence out of the press. It looks like three area newspapers petitioned to have information released, but the PA Supreme Court ruled against them.

  12. #147
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    it's a good thing he's being tried in juvenile court. that's where this case belongs.
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  13. #148
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    it's a good thing he's being tried in juvenile court. that's where this case belongs.
    I think I saw some data out there that Pennsylvania had a pretty distinctive track record of trying juveniles as adults, compared with other states. Seeing the crazy rationale from the first judge who wanted to try him as an adult, I can see how PA ended up with that status. I think on appeal the rationale was ruled a violation of Brown's 5th amdendment protections. Basically, he would be forced to confess to murder (whether he did it or not) in order to get juvenile court jurisdiction.

  14. #149
    Elite Member MsDark's Avatar
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    Re-reading this thread makes me miss king and butt.
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  15. #150
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Update: Guilty. It's still difficult to tell what all the evidence was. Apparently, the fiancee was shot dead just before the kids left for school. And a shell casing from the 11 year old's shotgun was found on the path that the kids used to walk to school. That doesn't look good. It looks like PA officials were frustrated with the adamant denials of the boy and his father, despite the evidence. He will get counseling and therapy now, though.

    Judge: Pa. boy killed dad's pregnant fiancée at 11 - Yahoo! News

    PITTSBURGH (AP) — A boy who was 11 when he was accused of killing his father's pregnant fiancée and her unborn son was found guilty Friday of their 2009 shotgun slayings.
    Lawrence County Judge John Hodge found the now-14-year-old Jordan Brown delinquent, the juvenile court equivalent of a guilty verdict, in the deaths of 26-year-old Kenzie Houk and her unborn child. The judge closed the trial, held about 45 miles northwest of Pittsburgh, to the media and all but close family members because of the boy's age during the killings.
    The boy's lawyer, Stephen Colafella, said it was too early to say if he'd appeal the judge's ruling on the first-degree murder and criminal homicide charges.
    Deputy Attorney General Anthony Krastek said the guilty verdict was important because it would allow the boy to receive counseling and other treatment that had been denied because he and his family had refused to acknowledge his guilt.
    "It's sad that it's coming so late," Krastek said, referring to the fact that Brown has been in a juvenile facility about 80 miles from his home for most of the three years since he was charged. "We offered this same result two years ago and it was stubbornly refused."
    "I read in the newspaper the other day that his father said he was the biggest victim in this whole thing," Krastek said. "That's the mindset we've been dealing with. Finally the child's best interest can be attended to right now."
    Colafella said Christopher Brown, the boy's father, wouldn't be commenting but was "extremely disappointed" by the verdict. Brown had gone on ABC's "Good Morning America" two years ago to proclaim his son's innocence and repeated that for local reporters after closing arguments in the trial Thursday.
    "He now has to wrestle with two issues: One is the impact of the verdict and his belief in his son's innocence," Colafella said. "And, at the same time, he must shift his focus to the treatment aspect of the verdict."
    County probation officials will devise a treatment plan for the boy, who remains in a juvenile lockup where his status will be reviewed every six months, according to Charles Marker, a retired Westmoreland County judge with nearly 30 years of experience in juvenile court.
    "''They do that because it could be the youngster's turned around his life, and you want to address that if it happens," said Marker, who wasn't involved in the case.
    Jack Houk said his daughter's murder has tempered the family's gratitude for the verdict. "We're not 'happy' happy, but we're pleased," Houk said.
    Houk said Hodge told both families "there's no winners here" and urged them both to accept his verdict and move on accordingly.
    Brown could conceivably be released on probation if juvenile court officials ever feel that he's progressed enough to warrant that. But his custody will end at age 21 no matter what because he was convicted in juvenile court. Brown faced life in prison without parole if convicted of the same charges in Common Pleas, or adult court. That's where state officials initially filed the charges because that's required in Pennsylvania homicide cases regardless of a defendant's age.
    "I hope he gets the treatment he needs in the time period that he's got, short as it is," Houk said.
    The case grabbed headlines as much due to the chilling nature of the crimes as the ill-fitting Pennsylvania laws governing juvenile homicide suspects, which prompted two Superior Court appeals. The first resulted in the case being moved to juvenile court and the second was an unsuccessful attempt by three western Pennsylvania newspapers to open the trial to the public even though Hodge had the discretion to close the case because Brown was under 12 when the killings occurred.
    Another Lawrence County judge, Dominick Motto, initially refused to move the case to juvenile court because he found no evidence connecting anyone else to the killings on Feb. 20, 2009, and agreed with prosecutors that Brown's refusal to admit guilt made his chance of rehabilitation in juvenile custody remote.
    Houk, who was 8 1/2 months pregnant, was shot in the back of the head with Brown's .20-gauge youth model shotgun while lying in bed. The shooting occurred after the boy's father left for work, with only Jordan Brown and Houk's two daughters, ages 7 and 4, also in the house.
    State police investigators found a spent shotgun shell dropped along a path that Brown walked with Houk's older daughter to catch a bus to school minutes after the shooting. "The offense was an execution-style killing of a defenseless pregnant young mother," Motto wrote.
    Brown's attorneys argued that the boy was being forced to incriminate himself in order to avoid being tried as an adult and the appeals court agreed.
    Months later, Motto reconsidered, after he was ordered by the court to give more weight to a defense expert who thought Jordan would do well in rehabilitation, and moved the case to juvenile court.

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