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Thread: Paris shootings and explosions near Stade de France kill 18

  1. #76
    Elite Member CornFlakegrl's Avatar
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    I'm not suggesting "all Muslims" are the problem or that Islam is the entire problem. Of course not. But these radicals aren't some tiny offshoot that present a minor threat. They are wreaking havoc around the world. In the name of their god. Sorry but that brings their god into the conversation.
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    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    Every religion has a sect of radicals. I just returned from Belfast where the peace between Catholics and Protestants is very fragile. The majority has accepted integration but the radicals from both sides still live in communities separated by a wall where the gates are closed at 630 each night for their own protection. Last year right before Christmas a bomb was placed in a car at a large shopping area in central Belfast. The detonator failed to ignite the bomb. The locals all talk about how the peace would have been shattered had the bomb gone off - and that is in the name of Christianity.

    And in the name of safety, the US has killed many civilians with drone strikes intended for the terrorists.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b028dd7ea6c4ff

    ETA - my daughter is living in Belfast right now and this situation puts me on edge, but life goes on.

    This morning I woke to the news that US strikes had most likely killed Jihad John and the talking heads of the news said "now our operatives will go silent and listen to the "chatter" to confirm that we got him." The attacks in Paris were clearly planned before we got Jihad John, but did no intelligence from any country picked up chatter about these orchestrated attacks?
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    I will never, ever understand wanting to kill someone because their imaginary friend isn't the same as your imaginary friend. I guess that's why I have to believe that there is something bigger at work (socioeconomic, cultural, fear?) because that shit is just dumb.

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    I'd love to offer my opinion, but I'm not in the mood to be banned.

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    Elite Member louiswinthorpe111's Avatar
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    I keep hearing about the "deep dark web." Wtf is that. How does one find that? Not that I'm trying to, I think I'm just naive.
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    This just saddens me. I hate when these things happen like we all do!! I do hate the disrespecting of religious beliefs that happens afterwards! I know everyone had a right to their own opinions but damn! There are a lot of radical groups in every religion but you cannot doubt or piss on someone else's beliefs!
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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by louiswinthorpe111 View Post
    I keep hearing about the "deep dark web." Wtf is that. How does one find that? Not that I'm trying to, I think I'm just naive.
    You need a TOR browser and know where you are supposed to be going.

    To understand what's going on, you need to read this Atlantic article: What ISIS Really Wants - The Atlantic

    ISIS is a very strict, by the book, apocalyptic Sunni muslim cult. Basically, they are all about holding land in order to have a caliphate. And Al-Baghdadi is their caliph. However, they are not content at all to just have land. They have to fulfill their destiny of bring about the apocalypse. Even if we didn't attack them at all, they would be looking to attack us. They believe that they have to have a battle with "Rome" to bring this about. And the US is a great substitute for Rome. They would love for us to come down and fight them on their territory. Even if they are getting their asses kicked, that's fine because the prophecy says that they will be on the verge of being wiped out near Jerusalem when suddenly Jesus will emerge (I'm not kidding), spear the lead infidel, and "lead the muslims to victory".
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    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    They are interviewing a sportscaster on 20/20 who was in the press box at the France/Germany soccer game. He is saying they continued to play and finished the game, and then there was confusion when they tried to empty the stadium and announced people should not use certain exits. There were two explosions right near the stadium, but they kept playing???
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  9. #84
    Elite Member Bellatheball's Avatar
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    Surprised by that too but they are saying the three explosions were two suicide bomers and a local gas tank. Maybe they didn't realize the severity? Plus...it's soccer and they're in France. (Not saying it was smart.) The US team still played tonight over here. They are trying to get to Russia. I'd be staying way the hell away from Russia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    You need a TOR browser and know where you are supposed to be going.

    To understand what's going on, you need to read this Atlantic article: What ISIS Really Wants - The Atlantic

    ISIS is a very strict, by the book, apocalyptic Sunni muslim cult. Basically, they are all about holding land in order to have a caliphate. And Al-Baghdadi is their caliph. However, they are not content at all to just have land. They have to fulfill their destiny of bring about the apocalypse. Even if we didn't attack them at all, they would be looking to attack us. They believe that they have to have a battle with "Rome" to bring this about. And the US is a great substitute for Rome. They would love for us to come down and fight them on their territory. Even if they are getting their asses kicked, that's fine because the prophecy says that they will be on the verge of being wiped out near Jerusalem when suddenly Jesus will emerge (I'm not kidding), spear the lead infidel, and "lead the muslims to victory".
    I love how they're so literal with the Koran, but then the US will do instead of "Rome". Fucking dumbasses.
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    Elite Member Kathie_Moffett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    Look, I know it's not PC or whatever but the ISIS organisation is wholly built and operated under the auspices of the Islamic religion, teachings, customs and beliefs. I'm sick of the endless mantra "This has nothing to do with Islam" when it has everything to do with Islam and it's declared intent to overthrow the non-Islamic "west" by violent means if necessary and replace it with an Islamic caliphate. Read the Koran (I have). It's all in there and because Muslims believe it's literally the word of God then whatever it teaches isn't open to interpretation or argument.

    One of the difficulties here is that unlike most other world religions, Islam doesn't have a central hierarchy or leader. There isn't a single figure with the authority to decide on theological or social issues or for his/her (as if) followers to turn to for guidance. Local imams/mullahs/ayatollahs control the local mosques or communities but there's no overall leadership. So "rogue" or extremist preachers/recruiters get away with behaviour that might not otherwise be tolerated. It's another reason for the apparent silence from Muslim leaders. There really aren't any.
    And when Islam has had more widely popular and influential leaders like the Ayatollah Khomeini or even Osama bin Laden, they hate the west. I know that many Muslim organizations, communities and so on here in the US have condemned terror attacks endlessly. Not much else they can do really. The fanatics don't respect them any more than they respect us.

    The fractured nature of Islam is creating huge problems for the current wave of European immigration. Many refugee camps are a nightmare of constant infighting, with daily brawls, vendettas and bullshit, and the European police are kept so busy with them they have been neglecting their regular duties. There are hundreds of hours of citizen-shot witness video out there, as well as photos and video from the press, so nobody has to take anyone's word for it. They've also found big weapons stashes hidden in the camps in Germany and I think Sweden as well, iirc.

    Quote Originally Posted by stella blue View Post
    I'm not trying to nitpick, because in general I think religion is incredibly stupid, but Christianity doesn't have a top authority either. Yeah, there's the Pope, but the protestants don't answer to him, and it's not the Catholics who tend to be super-extreme-fundies who blow up abortion clinics and won't let stores sell beer on Sunday. (edited to add: I don't mean to be flip with that last remark, but it's a pet peeve of mine as a non-religious person living in the southern USA who has to put up with tiny little infringements on my freedom to not be religious on a daily basis.)
    I have to differ with this a bit because I know a lot of non-religious or certainly non-devotional people who just adore the damned Pope. He shits daisies as far as they are concerned. He is more influential than you think--I should add that nobody I'm thinking of right now is even Catholic. It's all deeply embedded in pop culture.

    Raised partially Protestant myself, I was always referred to the Archbishop of Canterbury though I never reached out to him personally. Certainly he's not as high profile as the Pope...

    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    Ah yes, well then we get into the historical hatred between various Muslim sects like the Sunni and Shia who happily kill each other on ideological grounds. Just like the Christians in Northern Ireland.

    People in Europe, and America and Australia too are still incredibly naive and complacent about this threat. It's all warm fuzzy multiculti inclusiveness and kumbaya which leaves them wide open to being murdered by maniacs.
    Wide open are the keywords there. I'm not advocating mass deportation or lynchings or anything like that. I'm pointing out that there are, yes, plenty of peaceful Muslims, many of whom ran like hell to France, or the U.S., or wherever, to GET AWAY from the kind of shitheads who pulled this nightmare off today. And here we are with wide open borders and a naive attitude, not protecting them, or our own equally vulnerable native citizens either.

    This is bad. We need to wake up and recognize that whether we like it or not, a very large group of violent nutbars out there do consider themselves at war with us. They will continue to try to harm us, and we have to take stronger common sense measures to prevent that--as well as understanding that this is going to be a very nasty fight which we may never entirely win. It would help if we could set aside any of our bitchass ancestral squabbles that the jihadists probably find most amusing and helpful. (Not optimistic about that...cough cough Europe. Ahem US and Russia.)

    Quote Originally Posted by stella blue View Post
    Right, but there's more to it than that. I do think the fact that there are still governments that actively prohibit women from having equal rights in the name of Islam, for example (Saudi Arabia, I'm looking at you) that still have standing in the world community gives more credence to their cause, but I still don't see any good coming from painting Muslims in general as the enemy.
    This is still one of my most fundamental (haha) objections to Islam, and I will never actively support these religious lifestyle choices, much less adopt them myself. When I see fringey liberal media publishing opinions trying to convince American feminists like me that I should be "tolerant" about this, trying to normalize what is basically brutal oppression of women, well, fuck that.

    Plus there are PLENTY of Westernized Muslims in this country. Two of my oldest friends--since grammar school--are Muslims from Egypt and Afghanistan. They and their families are wonderful human beings, and their religion is personal, private and peaceful. No burkas, no jihad, just hardworking Americans who are happy here. They are really worried about what is going on and our inadequate--in their opinion--response. I have several Islamic neighbors as well, from Libya and Iraq, and they feel the same. I take their misgivings very seriously and I wish our governments, and more of my fellow liberals, would too.
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  12. #87
    Elite Member McJag's Avatar
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    Dallas has it's major buildings lit with blue,white and red to show support with the French. Lovely and sad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by louiswinthorpe111 View Post
    Let me ask my European friends, but is Paris an easy target? I say that because I can't see something like this happening in Germany. Mainly because my experience in Germany is that Germans don't fuck around, military/police wise. I could see London get hit before Germany. Is this a correct assessment?
    Lots of factors make Germany very lucky in regards to terrorist attacks. Sadly, one is that these Islamic extremists sort of admire Germany for all the wrong reasons - extermination of Jews and massive brutal military deployments from a relatively tiny country. My German friends who did charity work in Pakistan after the big earthquake were much admired by the Muslims there for those horrible qualities. They were appalled, naturally.

    But with that history comes a certain amount of fear. As has been seen, Germans, once they decide on a collective action, don't fuck around. If the balance of Germans, who are largely very liberal and concerned with human rights, turn against Muslims in general after a series of terrorist activities, woe be to them.

    Also, the Muslim population of Germany is overwhelmingly Turkish, not Arab.

    So it might simply be that Turks don't speak Arabic, whereas French born Algerians and Moroccans do. So the French Muslims have no problem understanding the ugliest and most violent propaganda from ISIS. Most of the ISIS big boys are Saudi or have lived there. Saudi Arabic is universally understood by all ME and N. African countries. But Turks do not. They can't simply join ISIS and start training because of the huge language barrier.

    It could happen, of course, since Turkey has allowed ISIS fighters across the border and supported their efforts to kill the Kurds. Turkey is in a strange spot where they like all the European tourist money that floods into their beaches and cities but they are suppressing secular voices and institutions right and left. The lives of Turks have greatly benefited through it's connections to Europe and Germany in particular, but their president is an Islamic absolutist who is destroying the laws and balance of powers in Turkey. It wouldn't be unnatural for the Ottomans to feel they deserve to invade Europe and control the territories they lost there, but they aren't as prone to terror attacks the way Arabs are...so far.

    Yeah, I agree London is far more vulnerable to attacks than Berlin. The hate speech coming out of Imams there is fucking crazy. The ways that Great Britain has placated extremist Muslims is scary, to me. Here in the USA, we have our scary Christians who promise holy wars and hoard guns to save the inherent national Christian identity but at least we can mock them publicly and jeer at their stupidity (how the Duggars are treated, for instance, or Rick Santorum.) In GB, that isn't even allowed. One can't even satirize the sputtering and shrieking of these Imams in UK versions of SNL. If a culture can't use the viciousness of comedy to belittle dangerous elements, because the culture is too intimidated, then you're only asking for those intimidating forces to demand more.
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  14. #89
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    ^^^^^. Totally agree and very well said. I was in London last month and was struck by the general tone of timid appeasement throughout the media which, after all, is a visitor's window into their hosts' culture and society. Either they are terrified of stating some home truths for fear of accusations of "racism" or they are just trotting out the usual liberal bleeding heart platitudes. The British leadership is weak and flaccid, also many European countries. And America and Australia for that matter. They just don't get it. So these fanatics will take full advantage and these atrocities will continue to happen.
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    Update: Mark Steyn gets it. You may disagree with him - I know some of you will - but it's worth reading.

    As I write, Paris is under curfew for the first time since the German occupation, and the death toll from the multiple attacks stands at 158, the vast majority of them slaughtered during a concert at the Bataclan theatre, a delightful bit of 19th century Chinoiserie on the boulevard Voltaire. The last time I was there, if memory serves, was to see Julie Pietri. I'm so bloody sick of these savages shooting and bombing and killing and blowing up everything I like - whether it's the town where my little girl's favorite fondue restaurant is or my favorite hotel in Amman or the brave freespeecher who hosted me in Copenhagen ...or a music hall where I liked to go to hear a little jazz and pop and get away from the cares of the world for a couple of hours. But look at the photographs from Paris: there's nowhere to get away from it; the barbarians who yell "Allahu Akbar!" are there waiting for you ...when you go to a soccer match, you go to a concert, you go for a drink on a Friday night. They're there on the train... at the magazine office... in the Kosher supermarket... at the museum in Brussels... outside the barracks in Woolwich...

    Twenty-four hours ago, I said on the radio apropos the latest campus "safe space" nonsense:

    This is what we're going to be talking about when the mullahs nuke us.

    Almost. When the Allahu Akbar boys opened fire, Paris was talking about the climate-change conference due to start later this month, when the world's leaders will fly in to "solve" a "problem" that doesn't exist rather than to address the one that does. But don't worry: we already have a hashtag (#PrayForParis) and doubtless there'll be another candlelight vigil of weepy tilty-headed wankers. Because as long as we all advertise how sad and sorrowful we are, who needs to do anything?

    With his usual killer comedy timing, the "leader of the free world" told George Stephanopoulos on "Good Morning, America" this very morning that he'd "contained" ISIS and that they're not "gaining strength". A few hours later, a cell whose members claim to have been recruited by ISIS slaughtered over 150 people in the heart of Paris and succeeded in getting two suicide bombers and a third bomb to within a few yards of the French president.

    Visiting the Bataclan, M Hollande declared that "nous allons mener le combat, il sera impitoyable": We are going to wage a war that will be pitiless.

    Does he mean it? Or is he just killing time until Obama and Cameron and Merkel and Justin Trudeau and Malcolm Turnbull fly in and they can all get back to talking about sea levels in the Maldives in the 22nd century? By which time France and Germany and Belgium and Austria and the Netherlands will have been long washed away.

    Among his other coy evasions, President Obama described tonight's events as "an attack not just on Paris, it's an attack not just on the people of France, but this is an attack on all of humanity and the universal values we share".

    But that's not true, is it? He's right that it's an attack not just on Paris or France. What it is is an attack on the west, on the civilization that built the modern world - an attack on one portion of "humanity" by those who claim to speak for another portion of "humanity". And these are not "universal values" but values that spring from a relatively narrow segment of humanity. They were kinda sorta "universal" when the great powers were willing to enforce them around the world and the colonial subjects of ramshackle backwaters such as Aden, Sudan and the North-West Frontier Province were at least obliged to pay lip service to them. But the European empires retreated from the world, and those "universal values" are utterly alien to large parts of the map today.

    And then Europe decided to invite millions of Muslims to settle in their countries. Most of those people don't want to participate actively in bringing about the death of diners and concertgoers and soccer fans, but at a certain level most of them either wish or are indifferent to the death of the societies in which they live - modern, pluralist, western societies and those "universal values" of which Barack Obama bleats. So, if you are either an active ISIS recruit or just a guy who's been fired up by social media, you have a very large comfort zone in which to swim, and which the authorities find almost impossible to penetrate.

    And all Chancellor Merkel and the EU want to do is make that large comfort zone even larger by letting millions more "Syrian" "refugees" walk into the Continent and settle wherever they want. As I wrote after the Copenhagen attacks in February:

    I would like to ask Mr Cameron and Miss Thorning-Schmidt what's their happy ending here? What's their roadmap for fewer "acts of violence" in the years ahead? Or are they riding on a wing and a prayer that they can manage the situation and hold it down to what cynical British civil servants used to call during the Irish "Troubles" "an acceptable level of violence"? In Pakistan and Nigeria, the citizenry are expected to live with the reality that every so often Boko Haram will kick open the door of the schoolhouse and kidnap your daughters for sex-slavery or the Taliban will gun down your kids and behead their teacher in front of the class. And it's all entirely "random", as President Obama would say, so you just have to put up with it once in a while, and it's tough if it's your kid, but that's just the way it is. If we're being honest here, isn't that all Mr Cameron and Miss Thorning-Schmidt are offering their citizens? Spasms of violence as a routine feature of life, but don't worry, we'll do our best to contain it - and you can help mitigate it by not going to "controversial" art events, or synagogues, or gay bars, or...

    ...or soccer matches, or concerts, or restaurants...

    To repeat what I said a few days ago, I'm Islamed out. I'm tired of Islam 24/7, at Colorado colleges, Marseilles synagogues, Sydney coffee shops, day after day after day. The west cannot win this thing with a schizophrenic strategy of targeting things and people but not targeting the ideology, of intervening ineffectually overseas and not intervening at all when it comes to the remorseless Islamization and self-segregation of large segments of their own countries.

    So I say again: What's the happy ending here? Because if M Hollande isn't prepared to end mass Muslim immigration to France and Europe, then his "pitiless war" isn't serious. And, if they're still willing to tolerate Mutti Merkel's mad plan to reverse Germany's demographic death spiral through fast-track Islamization, then Europeans aren't serious. In the end, the decadence of Merkel, Hollande, Cameron and the rest of the fin de civilisation western leadership will cost you your world and everything you love.

    So screw the candlelight vigil.
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