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Thread: Paris shootings and explosions near Stade de France kill 18

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    ^ I thought of your boy in relation to this. I feverently hope not too.



    I'm not OK with the thought of sending our kids off to fight in the middle of some other country's civil war.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellatheball View Post
    As I said, this is too big of a situation for me to wrap my head around. That said, I have not read, seen, or heard a single thing from Obama that has made me think we are coming at this with strength. Not a single damn thing.
    I guess you have been watching fox news....

    The anti-ISIS airstrikes the right chooses to ignore | MSNBC

    since President Obama launched a military offensive against ISIS targets 15 months ago – his “deep seated aversion to using military force” notwithstanding – the United States military has carried out 6,353 airstrikes. Every other country on the planet combined has carried out 1,772.


    Just two days after the deadly attacks in Paris, French fighter jets yesterday targeted a Syrian ISIS stronghold, Raqqa, as part of a sizable French military offensive. The French Defense Ministry confirmed in a statement that the raid “included at least 10 fighter jets and was launched simultaneously from the United Arab Emirates and Jordan,” and included 20 bombs.

    The statement added, “The first target destroyed was used by Isis as a commanding post. A jihad recruitment center. And a depot for arms and munitions. The second target housed a terrorist training camp.”

    The news was cheered by many, though Erick Erickson, a prominent voice in Republican media, respondedwith a message that was fairly common on the American right.
    “Dear President Obama, today France is leading from the front to contain what you couldn’t contain leading from behind.”
    This is nonsensical for a variety of reasons – we talked earlier about the foolishness of the “contain” talking point – though I’ll concede it’s interesting to see far-right Republicans celebrating the French while taking cheap shots at the United States on matters of national security.

    But what’s especially noteworthy about this are the details many on the right choose to ignore. National Journal’s Josh Kraushaar insisted this morning, for example, that the president has a “deep seated aversion to using military force,” adding, “If not after Paris, when?”

    What’s puzzling about this is the degree to which the criticisms ignore current events. According to statistics from the Pentagon, since President Obama launched a military offensive against ISIS targets 15 months ago – his “deep seated aversion to using military force” notwithstanding – the United States military has carried out 6,353 airstrikes. Every other country on the planet combined has carried out 1,772.

    Or put another way, for every one anti-ISIS airstrike launched by all of our coalition partners from around the globe, American forces have launched four anti-ISIS airstrikes of our own.

    If we narrow the focus to Syria specifically, as of late last week, France had carried out four airstrikes. The United States, acting on orders from President Obama, had carried out 2,658.


    The American right isn’t questioning the efficacy of American airstrikes; conservatives are questioning the American airstrikes’ existence. Conservatives see French forces launch an offensive, and the right celebrates the superiority of French leadership. But when President Obama maintains a more aggressive offensive over a much longer period of time, many U.S. conservatives pretend not to see it at all.

    To be sure, this isn’t entirely new. For months, a wide variety of Republicans – candidates, lawmakers, pundits, et al – have gone to almost comedic lengths to pretend not to notice the thousands of airstrikes President Obama has launched against ISIS targets. At times, it’s been genuinely bizarre.

    What is new, however, is watching conservatives suggest the French, by launching an offensive of their own, are somehow demonstrating a security commitment the United States isn’t. Reality points in a very different direction.

    Video of Obama at link.

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    The media really held Obama's feet to the fire at yesterday's press conference. He tried to fob them off with the usual vague generalisations and platitudes but they weren't having any of it. They want answers and action, or at least a clear plan.

    Q Thank you, Mr. President. One hundred and twenty-nine people were killed in Paris on Friday night. ISIL claimed responsibility for the massacre, sending the message that they could now target civilians all over the world. The equation has clearly changed. Isn’t it time for your strategy to change?

    PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, keep in mind what we have been doing. We have a military strategy that is putting enormous pressure on ISIL through airstrikes… I’ve already authorized additional Special Forces on the ground who are going to be able to improve that coordination… And when we find strategies that work, we will double down on those.

    Margaret Brennan, CBS.

    Q Thank you, Mr. President. A more than year-long bombing campaign in Iraq and in Syria has failed to contain the ambition and the ability of ISIS to launch attacks in the West. Have you underestimated their abilities? And will you widen the rules of engagement for U.S. forces to take more aggressive action?

    PRESIDENT OBAMA: No, we haven’t underestimated our abilities… [W]hen I said that we are containing their spread in Iraq and Syria, in fact, they control less territory than they did last year… We play into the ISIL narrative when we act as if they’re a state, and we use routine military tactics that are designed to fight a state that is attacking another state…

    Jim Avila.

    Q Thank you, Mr. President. In the days and weeks before the Paris attacks, did you receive warning in your daily intelligence briefing that an attack was imminent? If not, does that not call into question the current assessment that there is no immediate, specific, credible threat to the United States today? And secondly, if I could ask you to address your critics who say that your reluctance to enter another Middle East war, and your preference of diplomacy over using the military makes the United States weaker and emboldens our enemies.

    PRESIDENT OBAMA: Jim, every day we have threat streams coming through the intelligence transit… There were no specific mentions of this particular attack that would give us a sense of something that we need—that we could provide French authorities, for example, or act on ourselves… I haven’t seen particular strategies that they would suggest that would make a real difference. Now, there are a few exceptions. And as I said, the primary exception is those who would deploy U.S. troops on a large scale to retake territory either in Iraq or now in Syria. ...

    Jim Acosta.

    Q Thank you very much, Mr. President. I wanted to go back to something that you said to Margaret earlier when you said that you have not underestimated ISIS’s abilities. This is an organization that you once described as a JV [Junior Varsity] team that evolved into a force that has now occupied territory in Iraq and Syria and is now able to use that safe haven to launch attacks in other parts of the world. How is that not underestimating their capabilities? And how is that contained, quite frankly? And I think a lot of Americans have this frustration that they see that the United States has the greatest military in the world, it has the backing of nearly every other country in the world when it comes to taking on ISIS. I guess the question is—and if you’ll forgive the language—is why can’t we take out these bastards?

    PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, Jim, I just spent the last three questions answering that very question, so I don’t know what more you want me to add.... This is not, as I said, a traditional military opponent. We can retake territory. And as long as we leave our troops there, we can hold it, but that does not solve the underlying problem of eliminating the dynamics that are producing these kinds of violent extremist groups…

    Ron Allen.

    Q Thank you, Mr. President. I think a lot of people around the world and in America are concerned because given the strategy that you’re pursuing—and it’s been more than a year now—ISIS’s capabilities seem to be expanding. Were you aware that they had the capability of pulling off the kind of attack that they did in Paris? Are you concerned? And do you think they have that same capability to strike in the United States?

    And do you think that given all you’ve learned about ISIS over the past year or so, and given all the criticism about your underestimating them, do you think you really understand this enemy well enough to defeat them and to protect the homeland?

    PRESIDENT OBAMA: All right, so this is another variation on the same question. And I guess—let me try it one last time.

    We have been fully aware of the potential capabilities of them carrying out a terrorist attack. That’s precisely why we have been mounting a very aggressive strategy to go after them… And it’s going to take some time, but it’s not something that at any stage in this process have we not been aware needs to be done...
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Frustrated Obama Says Sending Troops to Syria Would Be a "Mistake"

    At a press conference on Monday, President Obama criticized those who have called for more invasive strategies in the United States and elsewhere to combat ISIS. “If folks want to pop off and have opinions about what they want to do, present a specific plan,” he said.

    According to The Guardian, reporters urged Obama to “take out these bastards.”

    “What I am not interested in doing is posing, or pursuing some notion of American leadership or America winning or whatever other slogans they come up with,” Obama said, making a clear reference to Donald Trump’s most reliable campaign rhetoric. “I’m too busy for that.” On Monday, Trump said that mosques should be monitored and possibly shut down.

    Obama categorically ruled out sending troops into Syria, CNBC reports, calling it a “mistake.”

    “Not because our military could not march into...Raqqa and temporarily clear out ISIL, but because we would see a repetition of what we’ve seen before,” he said. “If you do not have local populations that are committed to inclusive governance and who are pushing back against ideological extremes, then they resurface.”

    “Let’s assume we send 50,000 troops into Syria. What happens when there is a terrorist attack generated from Yemen? Do we then send more troops into there?”

    Obama also called recent proposals that Christians should be admitted to the United States but not Muslims “shameful,” The Guardian reports.

    “The people who are fleeing Syria are the most harmed by terrorism,” he said. “They are the most vulnerable as a consequence of civil war and strife. They are parents. They are children. They are orphans.

    “It is very important...that we do not close our hearts to these victims of such violence and somehow start equating the issue of refugees with the issue of terrorism.”

    At least 18 Republican governors and one Democratic governor have asked the State department not to relocate Syrian refugees in their states. “The fact is that we need for appropriate vetting and I don’t think orphans under 5 are being—should be admitted into the United States at this point,” New Jersey governor and presidential candidate Chris Christie said in an interview.

    http://gawker.com/frustrated-obama-says-sending-troops-to-syria-would-be-1742935142





    Me personally, I want to know when all the hawks are sending their own kids over to Syria to fight. Should be any day now, right?
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    If my son chose to join the military then obviously I'd hate for him to be deployed into a war zone but, err, that's what the military may be called on to do? It's their job. If he's prepared to fight for his country and it was his informed decision (conscription is a different matter) to sign up then I'd have to respect that decision, risks and all. The fact I wouldn't sleep a wink every night is my problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sluce View Post
    All while assholes like Trump get on their soapbox about how he would just bomb all of "them." Carson is supporting the republicans who want to stop the plan to accept the scheduled 10,000 refuges unless they are Christian.

    This made my heart skip with joy!!! Yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Me personally, I want to know when all the hawks are sending their own kids over to Syria to fight. Should be any day now, right?
    Exactly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Frustrated Obama Says Sending Troops to Syria Would Be a "Mistake"

    At a press conference on Monday, President Obama criticized those who have called for more invasive strategies in the United States and elsewhere to combat ISIS. “If folks want to pop off and have opinions about what they want to do, present a specific plan,” he said.

    According to The Guardian, reporters urged Obama to “take out these bastards.”

    “What I am not interested in doing is posing, or pursuing some notion of American leadership or America winning or whatever other slogans they come up with,” Obama said, making a clear reference to Donald Trump’s most reliable campaign rhetoric. “I’m too busy for that.” On Monday, Trump said that mosques should be monitored and possibly shut down.

    Obama categorically ruled out sending troops into Syria, CNBC reports, calling it a “mistake.”

    “Not because our military could not march into...Raqqa and temporarily clear out ISIL, but because we would see a repetition of what we’ve seen before,” he said. “If you do not have local populations that are committed to inclusive governance and who are pushing back against ideological extremes, then they resurface.”

    “Let’s assume we send 50,000 troops into Syria. What happens when there is a terrorist attack generated from Yemen? Do we then send more troops into there?”

    Obama also called recent proposals that Christians should be admitted to the United States but not Muslims “shameful,” The Guardian reports.

    “The people who are fleeing Syria are the most harmed by terrorism,” he said. “They are the most vulnerable as a consequence of civil war and strife. They are parents. They are children. They are orphans.

    “It is very important...that we do not close our hearts to these victims of such violence and somehow start equating the issue of refugees with the issue of terrorism.”

    At least 18 Republican governors and one Democratic governor have asked the State department not to relocate Syrian refugees in their states. “The fact is that we need for appropriate vetting and I don’t think orphans under 5 are being—should be admitted into the United States at this point,” New Jersey governor and presidential candidate Chris Christie said in an interview.

    http://gawker.com/frustrated-obama-says-sending-troops-to-syria-would-be-1742935142


    Me personally, I want to know when all the hawks are sending their own kids over to Syria to fight. Should be any day now, right?
    quoted again because every single thing he said here needs repeating, especially the bold part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    If my son chose to join the military then obviously I'd hate for him to be deployed into a war zone but, err, that's what the military may be called on to do? It's their job. If he's prepared to fight for his country and it was his informed decision (conscription is a different matter) to sign up then I'd have to respect that decision, risks and all. The fact I wouldn't sleep a wink every night is my problem.
    So what about the UK and Australia? Where are their troops? Oh right, Cameron couldn't get the Tories to vote to send troops to Syria despite being such a macho manly right winger.
    Also, IS isn't only in Syria. Is the West supposed to invade every Muslim country with IS presence? And do what? Keep blowing them up until what exactly? This isn't a State you're combating, traditional warfare and invasions won't help., they'll only wreak more havoc and create more chaos for IS to exploit and gain recruits. You need flexible targeted actions that can be in several places at once and most importantly you need the US and Russia to agree on a solution to end the war in Syria.
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    Europe 'human rights' laws are also to blame. The shooters and bombers were known Jihad fighters (self proclaimed) they were on a terrorist list.
    How can they not be extradited, I know some were like 4th generation but still. If you do not like the country you live in and you are going to fight it, you should be expelled from it.
    Belgium is like a nanny state but when it comes to terrorist residents oh we have to keep them. They should really clean those ones out and send them back to were their ancestors came from. They give a bad name to all the muslim people in the country and most are normal kind people like the rest of us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    If my son chose to join the military then obviously I'd hate for him to be deployed into a war zone but, err, that's what the military may be called on to do? It's their job. If he's prepared to fight for his country and it was his informed decision (conscription is a different matter) to sign up then I'd have to respect that decision, risks and all. The fact I wouldn't sleep a wink every night is my problem.
    The military is prepared to fight for their country, but a good leader doesn't send them off to do so unless its necessary.

    What happened in Paris is a tragedy, but that doesn't mean that the US should be goaded into sending its troops into Syria without a workable strategy. One of the underlying principles of terrorism is that when you cannot harm your enemy, you must force him to harm himself. A good leader recognizes that, and doesn't fall into that trap.
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    What happened in Paris is horrific. But, how about all the other attacks in other countries where many more people were killed. Where were all the calls for retaliation? Why now are so many calling for the US to attack? This is a problem for the world and it is not the responsibility of the US to fix it.

    Interesting excerpt from a longer article at Our terrorism double standard: After Paris, let’s stop blaming Muslims and take a hard look at ourselves - Salon.com

    Yet it is not just right-wing pundits and the media that give much more attention to attacks like those in Paris; heads of state frequently do so as well. Minutes after the Paris attacks, Presidents Hollande and Obama addressed the world, publicly lamenting the tragedy. Secretary John Kerry condemned them as “heinous, evil, vile acts.”

    Notable was the official silence surrounding another horrific terrorist attack that took place only the day before. Two ISIS suicide bombers killed at least 43 people and wounded more than 230 in attacks on a heavily Shia Muslim community in Beirut on November 12. President Obama did not address the world and condemn the bombings, which comprised the worst attack in Beirut in years.

    In fact, the opposite happened; the victims of the ISIS attacks were characterized in the U.S. media as Hezbollah human shields and blamed for their own deaths based on the unfortunate coincidence of their geographical location. Some right-wing pundits even went so far as to justify the ISIS attacks because they were assumed to be aimed at Hezbollah.

    Nor did the White House interrupt every news broadcast to publicly condemn the ISIS massacre in Turkey in October that left approximately 128 people dead and 500 injured at a peaceful rally for a pro-Kurdish political party.

    More strikingly, where were the heads of state when the Western-backed, Saudi-led coalition bombed a Yemeni wedding on September 28, killing 131 civilians, including 80 women? That massacre didn’t go viral, and Obama and Hollande did not apologize, yet alone barely even acknowledge the tragedy.

    Do French lives matter more than Lebanese, Turkish, Kurdish, and Yemeni ones? Were these not, too, “heinous, evil, vile acts”?
    Last edited by sluce; November 17th, 2015 at 09:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasippu View Post
    Europe 'human rights' laws are also to blame. The shooters and bombers were known Jihad fighters (self proclaimed) they were on a terrorist list.
    How can they not be extradited, I know some were like 4th generation but still. If you do not like the country you live in and you are going to fight it, you should be expelled from it.
    Belgium is like a nanny state but when it comes to terrorist residents oh we have to keep them. They should really clean those ones out and send them back to were their ancestors came from. They give a bad name to all the muslim people in the country and most are normal kind people like the rest of us.
    Because due process. What the fuck, people? They're not "human right laws", they're the basic tenets of democracy and a fair judicial system. You know, the little things that separate western democracies from, say, North Korea. If you want to give that up then you might as well surrender to IS and let them take over.
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    While I was in Belfast a little more than a week ago, we took a political tour where the guide gave background info on "the troubles" between the Catholics and Protestants, and how their 'hero' Bill Clinton brokered a peace deal. It was frightening to learn how fragile that peace is, and that less than a year ago, a bomb was set to go off in a car at a major shopping area just before Christmas. Luckily, the detonator blew but failed to connect to the rest of the bomb. Had it blown up, they feel the peace would be shattered. The guide also said that it is well known that members of ISIS have been training in Belfast learning techniques from the IRA zealots, and sharing their techniques with the IRA. I don't know if it is true or not, but we asked several others while we were there and they all shared the opinion of our guide. I felt sadness as I signed the peace wall, knowing the peace is so fragile.

    Europe must learn how to combat Isis menace modelled on Northern Ireland's Troubles - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

    Europe must learn how to combat Isis menace modelled on Northern Ireland's Troubles
    By Jim McDowell

    The people of Paris are reeling from their second terrorist bloodbath in a year. First Charlie Hebdo last January. Now, the obscene triple atrocities at the restaurant, the heavy metal rock concert, and the Stade de France.

    In essence, Paris is suffering now what we here in Northern Ireland - and sporadically in the Republic, and in Britain - endured for almost 40 years.

    And, even worse, terrorism spawned on our own doorsteps.

    There was no "radicalisation" of our youth via social media. There was no social media throughout most of our so-called Troubles.

    Instead, we had the recruiting sergeants of the IRA, the UDA, the INLA, the UVF either inveigling, or forcing, young people into their terror gangs.

    Just like what is happening with Isis now.

    Although they are operating on a global scale, using and abusing social media to spread their poisonous propaganda.

    We were different in that respect. We lived in, and through, a vortex of terror, a whirlpool of bombs and bullets swirling around the Falls, the Shankill, Belfast and Derry, and occasionally Dublin and across to the British mainland.

    In essence, the perpetrators of violence in this country - and especially in places like west Belfast - lived only hundreds of yards from each other, or at the most a few miles: they, or their alleged causes, were not spawned on another continent, nor directed from there.

    They were what the Americans would call 'Homeland' terrorists.

    Now, other countries - like France - have to learn to cope with similar terror tactics.

    Others may be 'imported' - like those who posed as refugees to gain access to France and to take part in the Paris bloodletting - but the two atrocities perpetrated in Paris this year had home grown terrorists in the ranks of their death squads.

    Ditto Northern Ireland since 1969.

    Ditto Northern Ireland, and Ireland, today, with the dissidents still intent on wreaking death and destruction.

    Now, the big questions being asked - by politicians, police and State security agencies worldwide, but especially in Europe - is what special measures are needed to combat these latest "soft target" tactics by suicidal Isis guerrillas.

    There is, rightly, outrage and horror at the so-called "soft targets" attacks in Paris on Friday.

    One wonders where Isis learned, or learned from, those killer tactics, aimed solely at civilians.

    Where else, but Northern Ireland? Restaurants and bars attacked by terrorists with either no-warning bombs or hooded gunmen using high-velocity assault rifles while kneeling down on one knee, and then reloading: just like in Paris.

    Remember the Abercorn, the Rising Sun, La Mon, Loughinisland, the Bayardo, the Dublin/Monaghan bombings, McGurk's bar, Bloody Friday in Belfast…just a few examples of the litany of lives here - over 3,600, remember - lost in similar terror tactics as those perpetrated on the French capital on another Bloody Friday.

    How do you combat that? Yesterday there was much talk about 'lockdowns': about major European cities - Paris, London, Rome, Moscow, others - throwing what we here used to call a 'ring of steel' around their municipal centres.

    We know all about that, too: remember when our town and city centres were circled by steel security barriers? Remember VCPs - vehicle check points mounted by armed police and soldiers?

    Remember being frisked, with women's handbags being searched and scoured, every time we went through a shop door downtown?

    Don't be surprised if, the next time you go abroad, it isn't deja-vu, or something very similar, in the major metropolises of Europe.

    And as for taking on the terrorists: there was much TV talk yesterday again about "taking out Isis, about the possibility of America, Russia, the European countries like Britain and France, pooling their resources and "going to war" with Isis in a new ground war, hitting the heartland of their operation in Syria.

    When the security forces here tried that kind of tactic against terrorism - remember Loughgall? - it was decried by detractors as "shoot-to-kill".

    Still, the re-creation, with the backing of the United Nations, of a kind of new 'Allies' force, like that which fought fascism in the Second World War, and defeated Hitler and the Nazis, may be one option.

    The other is the pooling of a core corps of the Western world's intelligence agencies - the FBI, the KGB, MI6, MI5, their secret service counterparts in France (especially), Germany, and other democratic countries - to seek out and cut out the Isis leaders, abroad, but most importantly at home, on their own doorsteps, too.

    There is an old adage in the newspaper industry which runs: Intelligence is Power.

    And nowhere is that more apt now than in this crucial fight against the killer machine which is Isis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sluce View Post
    What happened in Paris is horrific. But, how about all the other attacks in other countries where many more people were killed. Where were all the calls to retaliation? Why not are so many calling for the US to attack. This is a problem for the world and it is not the responsibility of the US to fix it.
    Thank you for posting this.

    The worst terrorist attack in Lebanon in 25 years barely gets a mention, same thing in Paris and people lose their minds. Cry havoc, blah blah....it's all very Orwellian in that some animals are more equal than others
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