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Thread: Leslie Van Houten, Former Manson Family Member, Granted Parole

  1. #46
    Elite Member gas_chick's Avatar
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    Apparently it does count as murder as she was charged and convicted on that count I'm just saying at the end of the day the only reason she is still in jail is because it was the Manson crime and not because her crime was any more heinous than any other.
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  2. #47
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gas_chick View Post
    Apparently it does count as murder as she was charged and convicted on that count I'm just saying at the end of the day the only reason she is still in jail is because it was the Manson crime and not because her crime was any more heinous than any other.
    Because she (along with various other Manson members) was originally sentenced to death, one could probably argue just as easily that the only reason she is drawing breath today is because she was lucky enough to be on death row during a brief window in time when California considered the death penalty to be cruel and unusual, and was therefore subjected to a re-sentencing.

    ETA - in reply to JoeBob's question about people's obsession with the Manson crimes:

    1. It was kind of the end of the hippie era - and it validated the opinions of a lot of middle Americans about counterculture.
    2. The trial was something like a year and a half long, which meant it was in the news constantly
    3. Multiple celebrities killed in an especially gruesome way - Sharon Tate (Polanski's wife), Abigail Folger (air to the coffee fortune), and Jay Sebring - head of the hair-care empire.
    4. Charles Manson was quite the showman, whether it was carving a swastika into his head and getting his followers to do the same, or grabbing a pencil and trying to leap from it onto the judge's bench to attack the judge
    5. Prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi's landmark, best-selling recap of the case.

  3. #48
    Elite Member Trixie's Avatar
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    ^ I agree the notoriety of the crime doesn't work in her favor, but I have to stop short of saying she didn't kill anyone. It's not like she was just the lookout or sat in the getaway car, she was an active participant.

    Quote Originally Posted by C_is_for_Cookie View Post
    One of my former co-worker's son and daughter in law were murdered in Texas while visiting on military ground, which made it a federal case if my facts are correct. The men who did it are on death row in Indiana(I think it's Indiana, it's definitely a mid west state). She told us many times how she wished they would just get it over with because she felt they didn't deserve to live, she would be able to die in peace and join her only child in heaven.

    It was a horrific story, I had chills running down my spine the first time I heard about it.
    That's so sad, and it's too bad the victims' families have no say-so. They are the ones who have to live with the aftermath for the rest of their lives. If having the death sentence carried out will give them some small measure of peace then they deserve that. But once the perps receive a death sentence, it becomes all about their rights, and appeals. It's not about the victims anymore.
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  4. #49
    Elite Member Bluebonnet's Avatar
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    This makes me sick. Bitch doesn't deserve to see the light of day.

    I feel sorry for the Tate and LaBianca families and the other families of the victims. It was so horrific.

    Just a re cap:


    The Victims...

    Known victims of Manson Family Members...
    Steven Parent | Abigail Folger | Wojciech Frykowski | Sharon Tate | Jay Sebring | Leno and Rosemary Labianca | Donald "Shorty" Shea | Gary Hinman
    Steven Parent... (Victim, August 9, 1969)
    Abigail Folger... (Victim, August 9, 1969)
    Wojciech Frykowski... (Victim, August 9, 1969)
    Sharon Tate... (Victim, August 9, 1969)
    Jay Sebring... (Victim, August 9, 1969)
    Leno and Rosemary Labianca... (Victim, August 10, 1969)
    Donald Shorty Shea... (Victim, on or around August 26, 1969)
    Gary Hinman... (Victim, on or around July 30, 1969)
    Steven Parent (Victim at Tate Residence - August 9th, 1969) Steven Parent was a victim of the Charles Manson murders. He was born and raised in California. He was murdered at the home of actress Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski, in Beverly Hills, California, along with Sharon Tate, coffee heiress Abigail Folger, Jay Sebring, and Wojciech Frykowski. Polanski was in Europe at the time. Parent was not acquainted with any of the other victims, nor with any of the manson family. He was acquainted with William Garretson who was the caretaker at the Polanski residence, and who lived in a cottage behind the main residence.
    Abigail Folger (Victim at Tate Residence - August 9th, 1969) Abigail Folger was an American coffee heiress and a victim of the Charles Manson murders. Born in San Francisco, California, on Wednesday, August 11, 1943. Her parents were Peter Folger, Chairman and President of the Folger Coffee Company, and Inez Mejia, the daughter of a prestigious California land grant family. She is the great-great-granddaughter of J.A. Folger, the founder of Folgers Coffee. Her Catholic parents divorced in 1952 when Abigail was still young, after her mother ended the marriage on the grounds of extreme cruelty. In 1960 her father married again, to his 34 year old private secretary Beverly.
    Wojciech Frykowski (Victim at Tate Residence - August 9th, 1969) - Wojciech Frykowski was a Polish born writer who was murdered in the home of Roman Polanski by members of the Charles Manson "Family". He was a very close friend of movie director Roman Polanski and appeared in one of Polanski's early Polish made short films, Mammals in 1962 as a thief. He came from Poland to the United States in the hope of furthering his writing career, but did not meet with success. Wojciech Frykowski was a Polish born writer who was murdered in the home of Roman Polanski by members of the Charles Manson "Family". He was a very close friend of movie director Roman Polanski and appeared in one of Polanski's early Polish made short films, Mammals in 1962 as a thief. He came from Poland to the United States in the hope of furthering his writing career, but did not meet with success.
    Sharon Tate (Victim at Tate Residence - August 9th, 1969) - Sharon Tate was an American actress born on January 24th, 1943 in Dallas, Texas. She was the first of three daughters born to Colonel Paul and Doris Tate. Even as a child Sharon was very beautiful. At six months of age Sharon won her first beauty contest; she was crowned Miss Tiny Tot of Dallas Texas. Her very first jobs would include modeling.
    Jay Sebring (Victim at Tate Residence - August 9th, 1969) - Jay Sebring was born Thomas John Kummer on October 10, 1933 in Alabama. His parents were accountant Bernerd Kummer and wife Margarette. Jay grew up with 4 brothers in sisters in a middle class family outside of Detroit, Michigan. After high school Jay joined the Navy and went off to serve in the Korean War. Learning much during the war, cutting hair would be a skill that served him very well in life. After serving 4 years in the Navy, Jay moved to Los Angeles where he changed his name to Jay Sebring.
    Leno and Rosemary Labianca (Victims at Labianca Residence - August 10th, 1969) -Leno LaBianca and his wife Rosemary LaBianca were victims of the Charles Manson murders. Leno was a grocery store owner, and Rosemary was also a successful business woman. They lived in the Los Angeles suburb of Los Feliz. Leno and Rosemary LaBianca were found stabbed to death in their home at 3301 Waverly Drive.
    Donald "Shorty" Shea (Victim killed seperatly on or around August 16th, 1969) - Donald Shea was born on September 18, 1933, and was a Spahn Ranch stuntman, actor and horse wrangler who had been killed approximately 10 days after the August 16, 1969, raid on the ranch. Manson, suspected that Shea helped set up the raid believed Shea was trying to get Spahn to run the Family off the ranch. Shea had talked with the Manson Family in jail after Spahn Ranch raid and it is believed that Shea had known things about the Tate-La Bianca Murders.
    Gary Hinman (Victim killed first on July 31, 1969) - Hinman was born on December 24, 1934 in Colorado was associated with the Manson Family. Hinman had been a hippie renaissance figure in the 1960s, had been working on a PhD in Sociology at U.C.L.A., was a political activist, Zen Buddhist devotee, musician, piano teacher, and apparently a drug dealer with a mescaline factory in his basement at 964 Old Topanga Canyon Road.
    On July 31st, Gary Hinman was found dead in his home. He had been stabbed twice in the heart and badly slashed across the left side of his face. His house had been ransacked and both of his cars were missing. Scrawled on the wall in Hinman's blood was "Political Piggy."
    Steven Parent | Abigail Folger | Wojciech Frykowski | Sharon Tate | Jay Sebring | Leno and Rosemary Labianca | Donald "Shorty" Shea | Gary Hinman
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  5. #50
    Elite Member KrisNine's Avatar
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    For me, it's more of an issue of why waste the time and money if there isn't a chance of parole? Why sentence someone to life with a chance of parole if there isn't any chance of it? It's stupid. If the sentence is life without parole, than so be it. I get that she was sentenced to death and that was commuted to a life sentence when the death penalty was reversed in CA. So, then maybe reverse that decision instead of parading people out every few years. Like with Manson. He's never, ever, ever getting out. Let's quit the show of parole hearings that he doesn't eve show up for anymore. \

    Our justice system is broken on many levels.

  6. #51
    Elite Member Trixie's Avatar
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    ^ I agree, and not to mention the emotional toll these parole hearings take on the victims' families. Many of them show up for every hearing to give their impact statements and object to release. They are forced to relive the crime and their loss over and over. At least if they knew the person was in prison until they died they could move on somewhat.

    I knew someone whose brother was murdered and she dreaded going to the parole hearings. Basically she went to support her mom but it was emotionally draining for her.
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  7. #52
    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    I am opposed to the death penalty for several reason - many already stated here.

    1. Too many are on death row because they could not afford good legal representation
    2. Monitories are over-represented
    3. It is cheaper to keep them in prison for life - the cost of all the appeals it takes to finally get to the execution is higher than housing them for life
    4. I want them to suffer. Being in prison is not fun. Being executed means it ends their pain and suffering
    Last edited by sluce; April 19th, 2016 at 08:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sluce View Post
    I am opposed to the death penalty for several reason - many already stated here.

    1. Too many are on death row because they could not afford good legal representation
    2. Monitories are over-represented
    3. It is cheaper to keep them in prison for life - the cost of all the appeals it takes to final get to the execution is higher than housing them for life
    4. I want them to suffer. Being in prison is not fun. Being executed means it ends their pain and suffering
    I'd also add that many are mentally ill and should've never been put there. Many have personality disorders. Especially Antisocial, and end up being allowed to put themselves in the legal position to be put on death row.

    I said that last comment with no sympathy for those people. But the mental state of a person is generally ignored, unless they are outwardly out of their minds.

    It's kinda like the idea of putting a frog in a skillet and letting it slowly cook itself. Before they realize it, it's too late. And the system does not care. They simply want to kill them as revenge.
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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    I'm sympathetic to that philosophy, to a point. However, you could also argue that anyone who would wantonly take another person's life is mentally ill. It's also common during the penalty phases of trials for the defense to trot out all kind of stuff from the defendant's past that supposedly contributed to them committing a horrible act. To me, there is a point where the crime is so egregious and heinous, and the evidence so overwhelming that you flat out have to kill the person who committed the crime(s).
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  10. #55
    Elite Member panic's Avatar
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    I used to be the for the death penalty but since finding out how many innocent people are locked up for years I don't trust the system to not lock up innocent people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I'm sympathetic to that philosophy, to a point. However, you could also argue that anyone who would wantonly take another person's life is mentally ill. It's also common during the penalty phases of trials for the defense to trot out all kind of stuff from the defendant's past that supposedly contributed to them committing a horrible act. To me, there is a point where the crime is so egregious and heinous, and the evidence so overwhelming that you flat out have to kill the person who committed the crime(s).
    It isn't about evidence. That isn't the issue in what i'm saying. What i'm saying is that there are some people who may not even understand that they won't come back the next day after being killed.

    There was a man named Ricky Ray Rector. He was executed in Arkansas. After he got done eating his last meal, he left his pecan pie behind. He told the guards that were taking him to the die that he was saving it for later. He didn't understand he wouldn't be eating that pie. That is a level of mentally ill that I can't even understand.

    Then there is the other side of this. And that would be someone that cannot understand the severity of the situation they are in due to their personality. And that would be someone like Ted Bundy. He could be alive today had he chosen to accept the plea deal his defense had created for them. His defense was told by a psychiatrist that he would ruin any attempts at a plea deal due to his personality.

    Instead of taking the plea, he chose to go to trial just so he could confront authority and be a star infront of an audience.

    Along with that was his end, when he confessed to try to get out of being executed. He had been told by his lawyers that it was basically ruin any chances of any last minute appeals working. His chief attorney said that he even thought he had convinced Ted to do it. Then he got off a plane to head to the supreme court, and he was told about the confession. He basically couldn't see the forest for the trees. He might as well have been allowed to flip the switch himself.

    That is by no means defending him. But some people can be so mentally messed up that they basically execute themselves. With the states help of course.

    It's easy to be for the death penalty. But it is much harder to be against it. I use to be for it. I thought that we should kill them like Texas use to in the late 90's. But not I don't. There are a multitudes of reason to be against it. Most of them have been mentioned. It's easier to be for it and not look into it than it is to look into it and be against it.

  12. #57
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    It may not be about evidence for you, but evidence is one of the factors that is important to me. Along with the cruelty and wantonness of the crime. I have to say that I find any of the circumstances surrounding Ted Bundy's path to the death penalty (as opposed to life in prison) to be not only unconvincing, but more toppings for his just desserts. His continued existence on this planet once caught and convicted was something that needed to be terminated - which it was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    It may not be about evidence for you, but evidence is one of the factors that is important to me. Along with the cruelty and wantonness of the crime. I have to say that I find any of the circumstances surrounding Ted Bundy's path to the death penalty (as opposed to life in prison) to be not only unconvincing, but more toppings for his just desserts. His continued existence on this planet once caught and convicted was something that needed to be terminated - which it was.
    Of course it's an important factor. But if a person is truly mentally ill, then they should not be executed. Locking them up till they die will suffice.

    How about Rector? Do you think it's ok to kill someone that think's they'll come back from it?

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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joebob View Post
    Of course it's an important factor. But if a person is truly mentally ill, then they should not be executed. Locking them up till they die will suffice.

    How about Rector? Do you think it's ok to kill someone that think's they'll come back from it?
    In this case, yes. Having read the circumstances of Rector's case, the only reason that he didn't have the knowledge that he would come back from the execution was because he shot himself in the head after gunning down a police officer (who he had known since childhood, and who he had agreed to surrender to) as he turned to talk to Rector's mother. And that was after shooting two other guys and killing a third. So, no, I don't think he's a special case at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    In this case, yes. Having read the circumstances of Rector's case, the only reason that he didn't have the knowledge that he would come back from the execution was because he shot himself in the head after gunning down a police officer (who he had known since childhood, and who he had agreed to surrender to) as he turned to talk to Rector's mother. And that was after shooting two other guys and killing a third. So, no, I don't think he's a special case at all.
    There are plenty of others with similar cases when it comes to being out of their fucking minds. Yet the state wanted them dead no matter what. Also, what is the point to executing someone who can't even understand it? It's not much of a punishment if they don't even understand the punishment.

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