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Thread: At least 12 dead after shooting at Paris magazine

  1. #91
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I don't want my American citizens going to live in another country and funding the mass murder of cartoonists and civilians in other countries.
    I dont think anyone wants that.

    But the Americans generally didn't give a shit when american money was funding the mass murders of the IRA against civilians, and we certainly would not have been ok with the Brits bombing those people to put a stop to it. But using our current position on this it should have been OK for the Brits to do so. We're hypocrites.
    A*O, rollo, Kittylady and 1 others like this.
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    Cold-Blooded Murder and the limits of Tolerance by Jackie Bischof.

    In the aftermath of an atrocity as horrifying as the Paris murders on Wednesday, it is more important than ever to be crystal clear about the freedoms that we hold most dearly.

    Freedom of expression, which must always include the freedom to offend and to ridicule. Satire is an essential part of a democracy. Incitement to hatred and to violence are crimes; incitement to mockery is not.

    Freedom of religion, including religions deemed offensive by others, so long as they do not impinge on the rights of non-adherents or coerce non-believers into acceptance of their teachings.
    Freedom from fear, including the fear of being different, or of speaking out, or of questioning majority beliefs. Above all, the freedom from the fear of being murdered.

    Democracies are not "under attack" by jihadis. (And let's hear no more about the threats to "Western" democracies, given that India, Pakistan and Indonesia have all suffered in exactly the same way as Paris, Madrid, London and New York. How quickly we have forgotten the massacre of 132 schoolchildren in Peshawar just last month.)

    The language of war is grotesquely inappropriate, as surely we should have learned post-9/11. To use it is to fall into the trap set by mass murderers. Those who kill, no matter for what reason or clothed in what rhetoric, are killers, and should be prosecuted as such, in exactly the same way as any other lawbreakers. They are criminals, not holy warriors, however they might choose to describe themselves.

    Let's take a leaf from Norway's book, and recall how it dealt with Anders Behring Breivik, the man who slaughtered more than 70 people, most of them teenagers, in 2011. He, too, described himself as an ideologue, but he was prosecuted as a common criminal.

    Tolerance is a value to be cherished, but there is no virtue in tolerating those who murder. The only effective way to counter the threat posed by killers like the Paris gunmen is by good police work based on good intelligence work, carried out with full regard for the basic human rights to privacy and freedom of belief.

    A mature democracy must be able to tolerate those who preach against democracy. But it can never tolerate those who kill, or seek to kill, those with whom they disagree. It is not a difficult line to draw.

    In a free society, you are free to believe whatever you like: that the earth is flat, that the moon is made of green cheese, or that God is alive and well and running a corner shop in Neasden. Likewise, I am free to mock you, laugh at you and offend you—but I am not free to kill you, or to incite others to do so.

    It is futile to talk of "defeating" those who think differently. But it is far from futile—indeed it is an absolute necessity—to prevent them from using violence in the furtherance of their beliefs.

    Charlie Hebdo is often offensive, deliberately provocative and frequently vulgar. That is its point—and that is the point of a free society. The kind of freedom I value includes the freedom to be all those things, as well as the freedom to protest against it, peacefully and within the law.

    There is a vast gulf separating the mind-sets of those who used their guns to kill in Paris and those who use their pens to mock. It is a gulf that cannot be bridged. But it was succinctly and accurately defined by The Guardian's media commentator Roy Greenslade, professor of journalism at London's City University.

    "Satire challenges sacred cows, but it does not slaughter them. Satire hurts, but it does not cause physical injury. Satire wounds, but it does not kill."

    And that is why the pen will always be mightier than the sword.

    http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/cold-blooded-murder-and-the-limits-of-tolerance/ar-AA7YdLA?ocid
    Last edited by *Wookie-Chick*; January 10th, 2015 at 07:09 PM. Reason: Whoa.. adding some paragraphs (they went missing.

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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    Also, a*o and others who wonder where the reaction of moderate Islam is, even if it weren't out there and just not being reported by most western media - why do you feel they moderate or non-practicing Muslims even "owe" anyone a reaction or that, if they don't speak out, they are somehow tacitly for the attacks?

    Whenever the westboro baptist church pickets a funeral and blames the gays for the polar vortex, tsunamis and the economic crisis, why isn't anyone demanding that Lutherans and Episcopalians and Anglicans issue a statement disassociating themselves from the Westboro loonies. Or when a fundie nutjob extremist kills an abortion doctor, which doesn't everyone ask for non nutjob Christians to condemn the murder? And why don't people assume that all Christians must love it when abortion doctors get murdered, just because they don't feel the need to speak out and make sure everyone knows they're not that kind of Christian?

    ironically, Charb, the murdered editor-in-chief of Charlie, made that same point a couple of years ago, said he was sick and tired of people wondering where the reaction of moderate Muslims was. He said it was as if people expected him to feel responsible for the actions of nutjob Christians when the extent of his "Christianity" is having Christmas dinner with his parents every year. he even said "they're not 'moderate muslims', they're citizens".
    Last edited by sputnik; January 10th, 2015 at 11:59 PM.
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    Elite Member SHELLEE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ikmccall View Post
    Wasn't that part of the plot of the movie Quick Change? Not to be flippant.
    That's the first thing I thought of too.
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  5. #95
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    I dont think anyone wants that.

    But the Americans generally didn't give a shit when american money was funding the mass murders of the IRA against civilians, and we certainly would not have been ok with the Brits bombing those people to put a stop to it. But using our current position on this it should have been OK for the Brits to do so. We're hypocrites.
    I think I would have been okay with a drone strike against Ted Kennedy.

  6. #96
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    You and Joan both
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  7. #97
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Lassana Bathily, Muslim Employee At Kosher Market, Saved Several People During Paris Hostage Situation

    Lassana Bathily, a Muslim employee at Paris Kosher grocery store Hyper Cacher, saved several people by hiding them in a walk-in freezer when a gunman laid siege to his workplace on Friday.
    Amedy Coulibaly burst into the market and opened fire, killing 4 people. He took several shoppers hostage and threatened to kill them if police stormed the printing shop where Cherif and Said Kouachi, who killed 12 people in an attack on the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo earlier in the week, were holed up in a village to the north.
    Bathily, identified by French media as a "Malian Muslim," helped several customers to safety as the chaos unfolded. "I went down to the freezer, I opened the door, there were several people who went in with me. I turned off the light and the freezer," Bathily, 24, told French network BFMTV. "I brought them inside and I told them to stay calm here, I'm going to go out. When they got out, they thanked me."

    UPDATE, 6:30 p.m.: Bathily appeared on BFMTV Saturday night to talk about the harrowing experience. When asked about his heroic acts, he replied, "We are brothers. It's not a question of Jews, of Christians or of Muslims. We're all in the same boat, we have to help each other to get out of this crisis."


  8. #98
    Super Moderator twitchy2.0's Avatar
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    Do people not realize how crazy the phrase "magical shape-shifting Jews" sounds?

    http://www.jewishpress.com/tv/video-...ws/2015/01/14/

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

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  9. #99
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Do converts get the same ability? If so, I'm in!
    All of God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.


    If I wanted the government in my womb I'd fuck a Senator

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