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Thread: At least 12 dead after shooting at Paris magazine

  1. #46
    Elite Member yanna's Avatar
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    I don't blame you, LaFolie, it's totally natural to be worried. I hope the best for your loved ones and for all peaceful, innocent Muslims in France.
    effie2 likes this.
    What if Superman is psychotic and everyone can see that he's Clark Kent but they just play along not to set him off?

  2. #47
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    No. France is only at war if French people fall into the trap set by the gunmen and let that happen.

    Sharpening Contradictions: Why al-Qaeda attacked Satirists in Paris

    By Juan Cole | Jan. 7, 2015 |

    The horrific murder of the editor, cartoonists and other staff of the irreverent satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo, along with two policemen, by terrorists in Paris was in my view a strategic strike, aiming at polarizing the French and European public.


    The problem for a terrorist group like al-Qaeda is that its recruitment pool is Muslims, but most Muslims are not interested in terrorism. Most Muslims are not even interested in politics, much less political Islam. France is a country of 66 million, of which about 5 million is of Muslim heritage. But in polling, only a third, less than 2 million, say that they are interested in religion. French Muslims may be the most secular Muslim-heritage population in the world (ex-Soviet ethnic Muslims often also have low rates of belief and observance). Many Muslim immigrants in the post-war period to France came as laborers and were not literate people, and their grandchildren are rather distant from Middle Eastern fundamentalism, pursuing urban cosmopolitan culture such as rap and rai. In Paris, where Muslims tend to be better educated and more religious, the vast majority reject violence and say they are loyal to France.


    Al-Qaeda wants to mentally colonize French Muslims, but faces a wall of disinterest. But if it can get non-Muslim French to be beastly to ethnic Muslims on the grounds that they are Muslims, it can start creating a common political identity around grievance against discrimination.


    This tactic is similar to the one used by Stalinists in the early 20th century. Decades ago I read an account by the philosopher Karl Popper of how he flirted with Marxism for about 6 months in 1919 when he was auditing classes at the University of Vienna. He left the group in disgust when he discovered that they were attempting to use false flag operations to provoke militant confrontations. In one of them police killed 8 socialist youth at Hörlgasse on 15 June 1919. For the unscrupulous among Bolsheviks–who would later be Stalinists– the fact that most students and workers don’t want to overthrow the business class is inconvenient, and so it seemed desirable to some of them to “sharpen the contradictions” between labor and capital.

    The operatives who carried out this attack exhibit signs of professional training. They spoke unaccented French, and so certainly know that they are playing into the hands of Marine LePen and the Islamophobic French Right wing. They may have been French, but they appear to have been battle hardened. This horrific murder was not a pious protest against the defamation of a religious icon. It was an attempt to provoke European society into pogroms against French Muslims, at which point al-Qaeda recruitment would suddenly exhibit some successes instead of faltering in the face of lively Beur youth culture (French Arabs playfully call themselves by this anagram). Ironically, there are reports that one of the two policemen they killed was a Muslim.

    Al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia, then led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, deployed this sort of polarization strategy successfully in Iraq, constantly attacking Shiites and their holy symbols, and provoking the ethnic cleansing of a million Sunnis from Baghdad. The polarization proceeded, with the help of various incarnations of Daesh (Arabic for ISIL or ISIS, which descends from al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia). And in the end, the brutal and genocidal strategy worked, such that Daesh was able to encompass all of Sunni Arab Iraq, which had suffered so many Shiite reprisals that they sought the umbrella of the very group that had deliberately and systematically provoked the Shiites.


    “Sharpening the contradictions” is the strategy of sociopaths and totalitarians, aimed at unmooring people from their ordinary insouciance and preying on them, mobilizing their energies and wealth for the perverted purposes of a self-styled great leader.

    The only effective response to this manipulative strategy (as Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani tried to tell the Iraqi Shiites a decade ago) is to resist the impulse to blame an entire group for the actions of a few and to refuse to carry out identity-politics reprisals.


    For those who require unrelated people to take responsibility for those who claim to be their co-religionists (not a demand ever made of Christians), the al-Azhar Seminary, seat of Sunni Muslim learning and fatwas, condemned the attack, as did the Arab League that comprises 22 Muslim-majority states.


    We have a model for response to terrorist provocation and attempts at sharpening the contradictions. It is Norway after Anders Behring Breivikcommitted mass murder of Norwegian leftists for being soft on Islam. The Norwegian government launched no war on terror. They tried Breivik in court as a common criminal. They remained committed to their admirable modern Norwegian values.

    Most of France will also remain committed to French values of the Rights of Man, which they invented. But an insular and hateful minority will take advantage of this deliberately polarizing atrocity to push their own agenda. Europe’s future depends on whether the Marine LePens are allowed to become mainstream. Extremism thrives on other people’s extremism, and is inexorably defeated by tolerance.


    Let me conclude by offering my profound condolences to the families, friends and fans of our murdered colleagues at Charlie Hebdo, including Stephane Charbonnier, Bernard Maris, and cartoonists Georges Wolinski Jean Cabut, aka Cabu, and Berbard Verlhac (Tignous)– and all the others. As Charbonnier, known as Charb, said, “I prefer to die standing than to live on my knees.”.

    effie2 likes this.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  3. #48
    Elite Member Tiny Pixie's Avatar
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    Some of my pupils were really shocked today, especially the ones who run the school mag, they spontaneously improvised a very moving tribute, it was heartbreaking
    Fluctuat nec mergitur
    Paris, Nov 13th


  4. #49
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    also, to those who have said that muslims aren't responding to fundamentalist attacks and condemning them, i think you'll find the problem is that western media isn't publishing those condemnations, and you'd be well served to remember that the vast majority of the victims of fundamentalist islam are muslims themselves.

    this article is a couple months old but makes the point very well:

    Posted in: Middle East Posted: November 12, 2014
    The Middle East Is Making Fun Of ISIS, New Satire Mocks Terrorists



    The Middle East knows there’s one thing that Islamic terrorists can’t stand: satire. Which is why comedians and networks in the region have started a humor offensive against the Islamic State. Cartoons and sketches now regularly harpoon the group and its leaders, slowly chipping away at their fabricated image of invincible killers.

    According to the Economist, a state TV channel in Iraq, Al Iraqiya, has pumped about $600,000, an unprecedented amount for the channel, into the production of Dawlat al-Khurafa, which shows ISIS taking over a fictional village in Iraq and the dysfunctional antics that occur as a result. For example, they put the town drunk in charge of the alcohol ban, silly ISIS. The first episode is already appearing to be a big hit in the Middle East, with 750,000 views on YouTube.
    Lebanon has been getting in on the trend too.
    Lebanese-produced Ktir Salbe Show does sketch comedies to mock the Islamic State. The Huffington Post described one of the skits, where a jihadist gets into a Middle Eastern cab. The jihadist asks the cab driver to turn off the radio because he rejects modern technology. Likewise, he rejects the air conditioning and he makes fun of the driver for answering his cell phone.
    The skit ends when the driver asks if cabs existed in the ancient Middle East. When the jihadist says “no,” the driver kicks him out tells him wait for a camel.
    One of the shows writers talked to Huffington Post about taking on the potentially dangerous topic.
    “Of course it’s a sensitive issue, but this is one way to reject extremism and make it so the people are not afraid.”
    Dashawi (shown below) is another of the Middle East’s new ISIS mocking series. The cartoon makes fun of the group’s rigid interpretation of Islam.
    The U.S. and the West have gotten a few jabs too. According to the Economist, cartoons in the Syrian village of Kafr Nabl have mocked Western forces for fighting ISIS while leaving Assad and his human rights-abusing regime in place.
    The Middle East has long used satire to combat its authoritarian regimes, but it’s rarely been a destabilizing element. This most recent trend might be different, if the satire can counteract ISIS’ own well-produced recruitment tapes and savvy use of social media.
    Unlike an established middle eastern state, ISIS depends on its reputation and image to secure recruits. If satirists can crack ISIS’ facade, they might really have an effect on bring peace to the Middle East.
    *Warning Video May Contain Offensive Language*

    Read more at The Middle East Is Making Fun Of ISIS, New Satire Mocks Terrorists
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  5. #50
    Elite Member Just Kill Me's Avatar
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    The Daily Show did a good bit touching on this using "NAZI cows"
    KILLING ME WON'T BRING BACK YOUR GOD DAMNED HONEY!!!!!!!!!!

    Come on, let's have lots of drinks.

    Fuck you all, I'm going viral.

  6. #51
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    I remember a long time ago my mom telling me that communist insurgents in western countries weren't trying to overthrow them - because they knew couldn't. What they were aiming for instead was to cause the government to become more autocratic and unappealing to the population. So that communism would look more appealing.

    We also have to weigh that with the fact that killing someone who has insulted Mohamed or Allah may be doing that for its own specific purpose. For the same reason that Salman Rushdie is still unsafe.
    Bunraku likes this.

  7. #52
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    you'd be well served to remember that the vast majority of the victims of fundamentalist islam are muslims themselves.
    amen.
    sputnik likes this.
    All of God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.


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  8. #53
    Elite Member effie2's Avatar
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    My cousin just told me she knew Cabu,he worked with her husband for TV and he visited their house for rehearsals,she said very very talented and the sweetest man ever..
    "Effie is all kinds of awesome." - Some internet moderator


  9. #54
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    a prophetic 2007 op-ed from Charlie Hebdo's then-editor, Philippe Val, whose interview with France-Inter yesterday broke my heart. He basically says "all my friends are dead" and is fighting tears the entire time.

    OPINION
    Modern Blasphemy

    ‘In order to survive, democracy needs to confront dogmas.’



    By PHILIPPE VAL

    Jan. 7, 2015 1:26 p.m. ET6 COMMENTS

    Editor’s note: This op-ed by the then-editor of the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo originally appeared in the Journal on March 21, 2007. On Wednesday 12 people were killed in a terrorist attack on the magazine’s Paris headquarters.
    Paris -- A French court is tomorrow expected to decide whether I and the newspaper I edit, Charlie Hebdo, committed a crime by publishing cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed. If the court finds me guilty of “publicly abusing a group of people because of their religion,” in effect racism, as the organizations of French Muslims that are plaintiffs in this case claim, I could be imprisoned for six months and fined thousands of euros. A great deal is at stake, for free speech in France and Europe, in the outcome of this trial.

    A little background is necessary. As you may recall, the original “Danish cartoons” were published in September 2005 in Denmark’s Jyllands-Posten without provoking any great interest. But later that year, Danish fundamentalist imams went on a Middle East tour to denounce what they claimed was anti-Muslim racism in Denmark. To support their argument, they brought with them not only the 12 cartoons published in Jyllands-Posten, but others with clear racist overtones, which ended up sparking all the trouble. The whole story was started by a kind of manipulation of public opinion in countries like Egypt, Yemen and Sudan, where official illiteracy is as high as 80%.

    Turmoil broke out in the Middle East. Huge protests were held in Syria and Iran, organized mostly by the police, since any protest unauthorized by the government is forbidden in those dictatorships. The Danish embassy in Lebanon was burned down, which is an act of war. Danish companies were attacked in many Muslim countries, without this unduly disturbing the other member countries of the European Union. Quite the contrary: Many people said that Jyllands-Posten was a xenophobic paper, which is untrue, and that Denmark was a racist country, which is equally untrue. (During the last war, when the Nazis asked the Danish to hand over the Jews, the Danes were the only ones in Europe, along with Bulgarians, to refuse.)

    In February of last year, the director of the daily France Soir, Jacques Lefranc, decided to publish the cartoons in France. He was immediately fired. It was in protest against Mr. Lefranc’s firing that I in turn decided to publish the cartoons in Charlie Hebdo. Our front-page headline was “Mohammed Overwhelmed by Extremists,” and had a drawing by Cabu of the prophet, covering his eyes with his hands and crying, “It’s hard to be loved by idiots.” I invited my colleagues from the daily and weekly press to republish the Danish cartoons, too. Most of them published some of them; only L’Express did in full.

    Before publication, I was pressured not to go ahead and summoned to the Hotel Matignon to see the prime minister’s chief of staff; I refused to go. The next day, summary proceedings were initiated by the Grand Mosque of Paris and the Union of Islamic Organizations of France to stop this issue of Charlie Hebdo from hitting newsstands. The government encouraged them, but their suit was dismissed.

    After the cartoons appeared, the Muslim groups attacked me by filing suit against me on racism charges. President Jacques Chirac, who campaigned for this just-completed trial, offered them the services of his own personal lawyer, Francis Szpiner. Dalil Boubakeur, the rector of the Grand Mosque, who always took orders from the Elysee, was apparently not convinced this case was necessary; he told me as much several times. But Mr. Boubakeur was under pressure from the fundamentalists at the UOIF (Union of Islamic Organizations of France), who had come to dominate the French Council of Muslim Worship, which he heads, and Mr. Chirac. Why? Only he knows. We can only guess. Probably to nurture his friendships in the Middle East and win arms contracts for France, while at home playing to Muslim public opinion that’s supposedly in thrall to fundamentalism.

    With so much on the line in this case, the outcome of which I still do not know as I write, politicians across the French spectrum have come out in support. On the right, the presidential candidates Francois Bayrou and Nicolas Sarkozy, and on the left, the first secretary of the Socialist Party Francois Hollande , have come to Charlie Hebdo’s defense. I had not asked them to. A number of Jewish, Christian and Muslim intellectuals stood in the witness box to defend us -- and, through us, to defend the exercise of freedom of speech in a law-abiding state. These cartoons criticized not believers but religion when it is used as an alibi to perpetrate terrorist acts. When religion leaves the private sphere, it becomes an ideology like any other, and must accept to be criticized with the same virulence as any other ideology. That is the very essence of democracy.
    Since it is hardly thinkable that the French parliament could be persuaded to re-establish the crime of blasphemy, the plaintiffs chose the legal path to try to obtain a ruling condemning all criticism of religion. But in order to survive, democracy needs to confront dogmas. We saw this happening when rights for women and homosexuals were established; we see it again today in defending genetic research on stem cells, for instance.

    This trial is important for all the forms of expression that should flourish in democracy: painting, cinema, literature, journalism, scientific research, and even the free speech exercised in everyday life. The limits to this freedom are already fixed by laws that protect life, and that penalize racism, insults and defamation. In publishing the Danish cartoons, no one broke any of them.




    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  10. #55
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Terrorism Works

    Terrorism persists because terrorism works. Terrorism works because we let it.

    It takes a great deal of violence to wipe out an army. But it only takes a tiny bit of violence to instill a sense of fear in a population. Terrorism is not meant to conquer through force; it is meant to conquer through fear.

    How did you feel when you heard that men with machine guns had murdered a dozen people at a French newspaper because they did not like its political content? Angry. Afraid. Those of us in the media felt these twin emotions most of all. "I am shaking with rage at the attack on Charlie Hebdo," wrote the New York Times' Roger Cohen. "It's an attack on the free world. The entire free world should respond, ruthlessly."


    Rage and fear. These are the twin goals of terrorists. And terrorism is wonderfully effective at achieving these goals. All of our rhetoric about bravery and freedom and honor and Settled Determination to Push Forward After This Tragedy rarely adds up to anything more than rage and fear. Our responses to terrorism are based on rage and fear. Because of this, terrorism works.

    The attacks of September 11 were a spectacular success. Is there any other honest interpretation? They were a success not because of the Americans they killed that day, but because we chose to spend the next decade mired in hopeless, counterproductive global wars that cost us trillions of dollars and killed thousands more Americans and hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Terrorists wanted to show the world that we were brutal and unjust, and we did our best to help them do that. Terrorists wanted a war, and we gave them one. And we lost. We lost by giving them the stupid, fearful, angry response that they wanted.


    Two men with a rifle paralyze Washington, DC for weeks. Two men with a couple of homemade bombs paralyze Boston for days. One man on a plane with a dud bombpacked inside his boots has an entire nation taking off its shoes at the airport for years to come. A small group of religious zealots send three U.S. presidential administrations down a nightmarish rabbithole of drone war, torture, and total surveillance of the citizenry.

    Terrorism works. Against us, terrorism works very, very well. Our collective insistence on treating terrorist acts as something categorically different than crime—as something harder to understand, something scarier, something perpetrated not by humans but by monsters—feeds the ultimate goals of terrorists. It makes us dumb. It makes us primitive. It is our boogeyman, and no amount of rational talk will drive it out of our minds.


    Terrorists who despise freedom of speech shoot up a satirical magazine. How do we respond? We respond with fear, by censoring ourselves and refusing to show the very images that prompted the attack in the first place. (Nothing new about that—the free press has demonstrated its cowardice on this issue for years now.) We respond with rage, by condemning all of Islam and instinctively calling for a response violent enough to dwarf the violence of the initial attack. We cower in fear and cry for war. We countenance any countermeasure as long as it will keep us safe. We let the ideal we once proclaimed so strongly sink into a pool of terror, and drown.

    Sound familiar? It is always the way. We are richer, and mightier, and far more deadly than any of our terrorist foes could dream of being. And yet we happily play into their hands. We declare a "War on Terror" of our own making, an absurd construct with no possible victory. We overreact so harshly to every injury that our reputation as bullies and savages is confirmed. We allow ourselves to be cowed by fear. We allow ourselves to be rendered senseless by rage. The terrorist lays the bait, and we give him the terror he seeks. The terrorist may be the criminal, but we are the hapless suckers who make his act worthwhile.


    Terrorism works. But it does not have to. Terrorism reduces us to the sort of society that we claim to despise. But it does not have to. The ideals we espouse when times are calm—justice, understanding, rationality, proportionality, a love of peace—are the ones that we must cling to most tightly when things get scary. If we discard them, we have lost the game from the start.

    We cannot control the terrorist. We can only control our response. Let that response be just, and wise, and proportional. Let that response embody the best of who we are, and not the worst. Terror is momentary. A loss of our ideals can last forever.
    All of God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.


    If I wanted the government in my womb I'd fuck a Senator

  11. #56
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    2012 interview with cabu.



    for the french speakers. i wish i could find a version with english subtitles.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  12. #57
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  13. #58
    Elite Member Brookie's Avatar
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    There are evidently 2 hostage situations going on right now in Paris - one involving the renegade brothers (who are perfectly willing to die as martyrs), and another one in a grocery store. Lester Holt (NBC) is reporting about a mile away from where the brothers are allegedly holed up, and all you hear are sirens and more sirens.
    Life is short. Break the Rules. Forgive Quickly. Kiss Slowly. Love Truly.
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  14. #59
    Elite Member effie2's Avatar
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    There are two dead at a cosher shop at porte de Vincennes in Paris,with 5 people held hostages,3 kids between them,a man heavily armed at Trocadero,apart from the manhunt near the airport..Meanwhile,cars were burned at different towns.God in heavens,please make it stop...
    "Effie is all kinds of awesome." - Some internet moderator


  15. #60
    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    It will Effie. But sadly, it will errupt again elsewhere.
    effie2 likes this.
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