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Thread: Gentle innocent or brutal killer: Seattle student charged with murder in Italy

  1. #61
    Elite Member Chilly Willy's Avatar
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    [quote=Wiseguy;1974435]
    Quote Originally Posted by Cali View Post
    I read that the knife had the victim's blood on it, and Amanda's boyfriend's DNA on it. And it had a not-100% match of Amanda's DNA on the handle, which makes sense bc Amanda had been over at her boyfriend's cooking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cali View Post

    What was the victim's blood doing on a knife that was in the boyfriend's apartment?? The victim had never been inside the apartment. Forensic scientists testified that the knife had Amanda's DNA on the handle and the victim's blood on the tip. Perhaps Amanda held the knife to the victim's neck as she was being assaulted.

    Also, the bit about the roommate is extremely unreliable. An independant investigator from the US traveled to Italy and was let into the same apartment to see if he could hear 3 sets of footsteps or screams like the roommate testified. He couldn't. All of this is in that CBS article I cited earlier.


    That was not the Filomena (room mate) who testified to hearing 3 sets of footsteps or screams. That was a neighbor across the street and she can be seen on the 48 hours program called "A Long Way from Home". So the room mate's testimony is very reliable - she was there the next morning and stated that Amanda's behavior was highly suspicious.

    None of these points are damning IMO. What the hell does it matter if the couple were caught on film the next day planning to have wild sex? People do that! Especially young people. I have no idea why that is even considered relevant.

    You're kidding. So, if your room mate was just brutally raped and murdered in the home you live in, then you'd just go shopping for lingerie the next day and be laughing and giggling??? Okaaay then.

    Would you also go into your home if the door was wide open and saw blood on the floor? Not only that, but then continue inside and then have a shower?? Because that's what Amanda told the police. Then when it was proven that Amanda had spent the night in the house, how did she explain everything? That she covered her ears with her hands to block out the victim's screaming. Oh and then she blamed police for making her say that.

    Amanda used bleach to thoroughly, thoroughly clean that house. She also washed her own clothes overnight and the victim's clothing was also in the wash.

    So yes, Amanda Knox is as guilty as hell and she's lucky she didn't get life in prison.


    Looks like you and I have read the same articles. One more point: Why would she try to put the blame on someone else, if she's innocent?

    The American media has proved to be biased before. I use it solely for entertainment purposes, not to educate myself on a particular subject.
    Hello mother fucker! when you ask a question read also the answer instead of asking another question on an answer who already contain the answer of your next question!
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  2. #62
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gas_chick View Post
    I think she and her boyfriend are innocent. The video that sparked interest was ridiculous. They both looked shell shocked. The prosecutor himself is coming up on charges that were postponed until after this trial for misconduct. I don't care at all that she is a fellow american. This would be a travesty if she was from anywhere in the world.
    The video is a very small part of the case against Knox. The case is built on her duplicitous testimony (including initial confession), her boyfriend's lies about where he was, the overall timeline concerning where they were, DNA evidence, and evidence of tampering with the scene of the crime (bleach in the apartment and washing the clothes in bleach).

  3. #63
    Elite Member Charmed Hour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    the italian legal system is based on civil law, which is the most widespread legal system in the world.
    Legal systems of the world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Civil law (legal system) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    as opposed to common law, which is the system in place in most of the english speaking world.
    That's what I was telling Alice. It's not the same type of system used in the US, so the interpretation of "reasonable doubt" (if even applicable), would be different.

    Interesting factoid, all of the US follows common law, except Louisana, which follows civil.

  4. #64
    Elite Member Laxmobster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t13nif View Post
    Gah. I don't know what to believe. Both sides are very convincing.
    That's pretty much how I feel! I can't decide either way. But this is all very interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celestial View Post
    I also choose to believe the rumors because I am, when it is all said and done, a dirty gossip.

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    Elite Member Shinola's Avatar
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    Regardless of what her role in this actually was, it's clear she's lying and withholding information. And that in itself is so inexcusable, given what the dead woman's family must be going through. They deserve to know what happened.
    Last edited by Shinola; December 8th, 2009 at 06:09 PM.
    Posted from my fucking iPhone

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    Elite Member MrsMarsters's Avatar
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    ^^Exactly at the very least she is a liar.

  7. #67
    Elite Member Moongirl's Avatar
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    Foxy Knoxy: The troubling doubts over Amanda Knox's role in Meredith Kercher's murder
    By Tom Rawstorne


    The small hours of Saturday morning and a cell door slams shut on Amanda Knox, the American sentenced to 26 years in prison for the murder of Meredith Kercher. But in terms of closure, that is pretty much as far as it goes.

    Despite the verdict of the Italian jury last week, there remain more questions than answers as to how the 21-year-old Briton met her gruesome death while studying in Perugia.

    In the days that have followed Knox's conviction, an increasingly bitter transatlantic war of words has broken out. In the U.S., it is being widely claimed that the verdict was due to 'anti-Americanism', and that there was insufficient evidence to have proven Knox's guilt.


    Guilty? Amanda Knox was sentenced to 26 years in prison for murder

    Those claims have been angrily denied in Italy and by Meredith's parents.
    'It's ludicrous,' says John Kercher, the victim's father. 'I believe the verdict was based entirely on the evidence.'

    That verdict came two years and one month after Miss Kercher's semi-naked body was found in a pool of blood in her rented apartment.

    A former public schoolgirl from Coulsdon, Surrey, she was just two months into a university exchange programme when, the prosecution allege, she was confronted in her bedroom by her flatmate Knox, Knox's boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guede, an immigrant from the Ivory Coast.

    It was claimed that, high on drink and drugs, the trio attempted to involve Meredith in a sex game - holding a knife to her throat.

    Sollecito is thought to have held her down as Guede tried to rape her. When Miss Kercher resisted, it is believed to have been Knox who stabbed her.

    Knox and Sollecito returned to the scene of their crime the following morning, and 'discovered' the murder.


    Victim: Meredith Kercher was stabbed to death in her flat in Perugia, Italy

    Initially, detectives believed Miss Kercher may have been attacked by a burglar because the door to her room was locked and a window was broken. But Knox's strange behaviour, turning cartwheels in the police station as she waited to be questioned, raised suspicions.

    She gave a series of different statements to police before making a bizarre confession, blaming innocent local bar owner Patrick Lumumba for the crime.
    Lawyers for Knox have always insisted she was with her boyfriend in his flat on the night of the killing, and that the so-called confession was forced out of her by police. They dismiss the motive for the crime as groundless and arising from the perception that Knox - nicknamed Foxy Knoxy - was sexually promiscuous.

    Her legal team is preparing to challenge the jury's verdict in an appeal that will be heard late next year.

    Here, the Mail outlines the main areas that Knox's supporters insist must be re-examined.

    So is she guilty? Read on and decide for yourself.

    THE MURDER WEAPON
    The knife that is alleged to have been used in the murder of Meredith is crucial, because the prosecution says it had traces of DNA from the victim and Knox.

    The 12in kitchen knife was found in Sollecito's apartment, further linking the couple to the killing.

    But question marks have long surrounded whether it was the murder weapon, and how exactly the police came to find it.

    The court heard evidence that suggested the knife could not have made two of the three slash wounds to Meredith's neck. Furthermore, it did not match the bloody imprint of a knife left on bedclothes at the scene.

    How police 'discovered' the knife has also raised eyebrows - it was selected from several owned by Sollecito that were in his kitchen cutlery drawer.

    Officers testified that there was a strong smell of bleach in the apartment and that the knife looked exceptionally clean. Using 'police intuition', they decided it might be of interest, despite the fact it had no visible stains or notable characteristics.


    Strange behaviour: Amanda and boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito were seen kissing outside the crime scene

    THE DNA EVIDENCE

    THE KNIFE
    The knife is also central to the prosecution case because of the DNA traces on it that supposedly link Knox to the murder.

    But her defence team argues that it may have been contaminated, and that the quality of the DNA evidence would not have been acceptable in an U.S. or British court.

    Knox's DNA was found by swabbing the handle. Hardly surprising, say her supporters, given that she had used the knife to prepare food at Sollecito's apartment.

    The handle and blade were also tested for the presence of blood - but none was found.

    The centre portion of the flat edge of the blade was removed for further analysis. Again, no blood was found, but a DNA profile was discovered that was a match to Meredith.

    The defence claims this match was at such a low level that if it had been tested in a U.S. laboratory it would have been disregarded as unreliable.


    Ordeal: Knox was interrogated for nearly 53 hours over five days, part of the time without a lawyer

    This point is emphasised in an open letter signed by nine U.S. experts in DNA who recently reviewed the evidence presented by Italian police.

    Further, if this DNA did not originate from Meredith's blood (no blood showed up in that specific test), the experts conclude it must have originated from some other source.

    And the most likely source, they argue, is cross-contamination from other DNA in the laboratory.

    It is known that the same laboratory was analysing a large number of samples taken from the crime scene that did contain high quantities of the victim's DNA.

    'There exists the real possibility that the low-level partial profile attributed to the knife blade is a result of unintended transfer in the laboratory during sample handling,' the U.S. experts concluded.

    THE BRA CLASP
    The other key plank of the prosecution's DNA evidence related to a clasp severed from Meredith's bra that was found at the scene.

    This was said to have Sollecito's DNA on it. But the defence has long challenged its evidential value because it was not recovered from the floor of the victim's bedroom until 47 days after the murder.

    During that time, they claim, it was contaminated - an argument apparently supported by the fact that the rest of the bra did not show any such DNA traces.

    That police could have missed the clasp for so long is also put forward as being indicative of the way in which the murder investigation was carried out.

    Video footage by detectives on November 3, 2007, two days after the murder, shows the bra clasp on the floor of Meredith's room, next to where her body was found. It had been cut from the bra she was wearing when she was attacked.

    But it was not until December 18, when police revisited the crime scene, that they found the clasp at a different location in the room and finally collected it as evidence.

    It was then subjected to testing, which revealed microscopic traces of DNA belonging to Sollecito as well as at least three other unidentified people.

    This DNA test result is central to the prosecution's case, because no other evidence links Sollecito or Knox to the room where the murder took place.

    But the defence argues it is, in fact, meaningless because Sollecito had visited the house on several occasions before the murder, meaning that his DNA could have been innocently transferred onto the clasp.


    Crime scene: The evidence in the apartment in Perugia is said to have been contaminated by the defence team

    Alternatively, the clasp could have been contaminated when it was on the floor or when it was eventually bagged up by officers.

    The U.S. experts concluded: 'Handling and movement of this sample has compromised its probative value [in other words, its value as proof in this case]. The laboratory result for this sample cannot reliably be interpreted to show that the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito was actually on the bra clasp at the time of Meredith Kercher's murder, and it does not establish how or when this DNA was deposited or transferred.'

    Further complaints centre on the failure of the prosecution to provide the defence teams with full details - the scientific protocols - of how their forensic experts arrived at their critical conclusions. It is an area the defence will insist upon before the appeal.

    THE CONFESSION
    Knox's legal team say she was 'brainwashed' and coerced into making a confession in which she admitted being in the house at the time of Meredith's murder and in which she falsely accused bar owner Patrick Lumumba of the killing.

    Later, she retracted her statement, saying police threatened her with violence. Knox was interrogated for nearly 53 hours over five days, part of the time without a lawyer. Italian law is clear: a suspect must not be interrogated without a lawyer.

    However, the interrogation fell into an uncertain area of the law because she went voluntarily to the police station and was initially interviewed as a potential witness, not a suspect.


    Distraught: The Knox family at Capanne prison on the Saturday afternoon after her sentencing

    But five days after the murder, in the pre-dawn hours of November 6, 2007, supporters claim the questioning became much more aggressive in tone. The police apparently grilled her about text messages between her and the man for whom she occasionally worked, Patrick Lumumba. They insisted the pair had made plans to meet on the night of the murder.

    It is alleged the police told her they had proof she was at the scene of the crime, that she would go to prison for the next 30 years and would never see her family again.

    Under this pressure, Knox is said to have described a version of events that the defence says was an imaginary dream or vision.

    In this 'vision', she was in the kitchen covering her ears to block out the screams while Mr Lumumba was in Meredith's bedroom. The defence says she gave police what they wanted to hear and that her confusion is evident in a note she wrote a few hours later.

    She stated: 'In regards to this "confession" that I made last night, I want to make it clear that I'm very doubtful of the verity of my statements because they were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion.

    'Not only was I told I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly.

    'The police have told me that they have hard evidence that places me at the house, my house, at the time of Meredith's murder.


    Relief: Meredith's mother, sister and father are pleased by the news

    'I don't know what proof they are talking about, but if this is true, it means I am very confused and my dreams must be real.'

    Italian police have denied that they in any way mistreated Knox during the interrogation.

    Indeed, before the end of the trial, a number of officers announced they were planning to sue her parents for defamation after the divorced couple aired the allegations of mistreatment in an interview with a British newspaper.

    THE LONE KILLER
    The prosecution case is that Meredith was murdered by more than one person.

    Initially, police stated that Knox and Sollecito had been aided by Patrick Lumumba, the man named by Knox in her confession.

    When he was found to have a cast-iron alibi, his place in the trio was taken by Rudy Guede, a local drug dealer whose DNA was found all over the murder scene.

    The immigrant from the Ivory Coast had left a handprint in the victim's blood on a pillow found under the corpse. His DNA was found inside her body, on her clothing and on her handbag. DNA evidence also linked him to an unflushed toilet.

    The defence has long contended that 22-year-old Guede carried out the killing on his own and that his version of events, which puts Knox and Sollecito at the scene, was at best fanciful and at worst deliberately fabricated.

    Guede, who was sentenced to 30 years for murdering Meredith following a separate trial, claimed he had been in the flat on the night of the murder. While he used the toilet, he claimed to hear Knox and Kercher arguing over missing money, followed by a loud scream.


    Doubt: Amanda's lawyers are hard at work preparing an appeal

    He later claimed he found Meredith dying on the floor and saw an unidentified man and 'the outline' of Knox leaving the scene.

    After the murder, Guede fled to Germany, where he was arrested two weeks later after being caught travelling on a train without a ticket.

    What has emerged, and what particularly interests the defence, is that Guede had come into contact with the police at least three times in the weeks leading up to Meredith's murder.

    On September 27, 2007 - five weeks before the killing - Perugia bar tender Cristian Tramantano heard a noise downstairs in his home and found Guede wandering around with a large knife. Tramantano recognised Guede from his work in a nightclub.

    There was a confrontation between the two, which ended when Guede ran away. On four occasions, Tramantano went to Perugia's central police station to report the break-in, identify Guede as the culprit and to detail how the intruder was armed and threatened him.

    On each occasion, he says he was ignored and the police refused to log his complaint.

    The following weekend, there was a break-in at an English-speaking nursery school in Milan in which 2,000 euros and a digital camera were stolen. The school owner, Maria Antoinette Salvadori del Prato, reported it to her local police station.

    Three weeks later, on Saturday, October 27 - one week before the murder - Mrs Prato arrived at the school early in the morning with a locksmith to replace the front door, only to be confronted by Guede standing in the main entrance.

    Police were called and Guede questioned. A stolen laptop, digital camera and ten-inch kitchen knife were found in his backpack.

    But instead of being arrested and charged, Guede was merely escorted to Milan central railway station and placed on a train back to Perugia.

    In the interim, on the weekend of October 13, there had been a break-in at the office of lawyers Paolo Brocchi and Luigi Palazzoli, in which a firstfloor window was smashed - similar to the break-in at Meredith's house. A computer and other items were stolen.

    They were later found in Guede's possession, but he was not arrested or charged.

    This series of crimes and the absence of police action has led Knox's defence team to believe Guede may have been an informant being protected by someone in the police force.

    If that is the case, then it must be investigated, as that failure to act left Guede free to murder Meredith.

    THE WITNESSES
    A number of witnesses came forward with incriminating evidence - but not until long after the police investigation had been completed.

    They were known as the 'magic witnesses' who appeared and gave evidence for the prosecution in the trial.


    Bizarre: Amanda Knox fools around with an antique machine gun

    The credibility of their evidence is to become a focus during the appeal. Each will be asked to give detailed statements, explaining why they came forward so long after the investigation had been completed.

    The first was Fabio Gioffredi, a university researcher who approached the prosecution a year after the murder and helped provide a statement that linked Meredith to Knox, Sollecito and Guede.

    He is considered unreliable because he said he saw Knox on the day of the murder wearing a red, Sixties-style coat that was never found and which no one else had seen her wear.

    He also says he saw Meredith, Knox, Sollecito and Guede together on the afternoon of October 30, around 4.30pm to 5.30pm. But a defence computer expert showed Sollecito was using his computer from 3.30pm to 6.30pm that day.

    The second witness was Marco Quintavalle, the former owner of a grocery shop in Perugia.

    He knew Sollecito and Knox by sight and was interviewed by police days after the murder, telling officers they had not been in his shop on the morning after the killing.

    Seven months later, he told a newspaper reporter he had, in fact, seen Sollecito and Knox in the shop that morning and recalled them buying two bottles of bleach, which the prosecution alleged had been used as part of the clean-up of the murder scene.

    However, another of the shop assistants that day was Marina Chiriboga, who also worked part-time cleaning student apartments.

    She was able to refute Quintavalle's new version of events because she was also in the shop on the morning of November 2, 2007, and did not see Sollecito or Knox.

    THE ALIBI
    The appeal will examine closely how potentially critical evidence on three laptops - two owned by Sollecito and one owned by Knox - was destroyed by a police 'computer expert'.

    The computers were seized after the two lovers were arrested. The defence team claim examination of the hard-drives would have gone a long way to substantiating the version of events given by Knox and Sollecito.

    At least two of the computers would have shown Knox or Sollecito were using them at the time Meredith is said to have been killed.


    Evidence: The kitchen knife police believe killed Meredith may have been contaminated

    But the computer expert managed to systematically destroy all three hard-drives.

    One defence source said: 'After destroying one hard-drive, common sense would have told him to stop and find out what he was doing wrong.

    'But, no, he continued and didn't stop until all three were destroyed beyond any hope of reading from them what had actually taken place on the night in question.'

    FOXY'S BEHAVIOUR
    Much was made by the prosecution of Knox's eccentric behaviour in the aftermath of the murder. She was seen canoodling with Sollecito outside the scene of the crime and, while waiting at the police station to be questioned, she performed cartwheels and the splits.

    Her family have dismissed such behaviour as a sign of Knox's naivete, explaining: 'This is Amanda just being Amanda.'

    Evidence was also put to the court about how Knox kept a pink Rampant Rabbit vibrator in a transparent beauty case in the women's shared bathroom.

    When Miss Kercher's British female friends took the stand, they testified about how the presence of the sex toy made Miss Kercher feel uncomfortable.

    It was claimed by the prosecution that the sex toy was presented in this way to intimidate Miss Kercher. Knox denied this was the case, explaining that it had been given to her as a joke.

    Her family have also been at pains to state that her nickname - Foxy Knoxy - originated from when she played football as a child and had no sexual connotations.

    For now, Foxy Knoxy languishes in her cell in an Italian prison, but day by day the campaign to free her gathers voice and momentum in the U.S.

    Meanwhile, her lawyers are hard at work preparing an appeal - and you can be sure that all the troubling facts outlined here will be at the heart of their case.

    So will Amanda Knox be freed? Only time will tell, but there is little doubt that her conviction has not silenced those who have long held doubts about her role in this terrible crime.


    Read more: Foxy Knoxy: The troubling doubts over Amanda Knox's role in Meredith Kercher's murder | Mail Online

  8. #68
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    The whole article is a hatchet job based on the defense's contentions.

  9. #69
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    ^^^I agree Mohandas.


  10. #70
    Silver Member eobane's Avatar
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    I dont know what to think - is she innocent or not.

    But one thing I am certain of, I feel sad, that people feel the need to bash a civilized country's legal system.

    Maybe some of you read the post on E-online from Taryn Ryder. It makes me sad, and please, don't be offended, that apparently only the US are to have a correct and fair judicial system and any other country's is 'medieval' and presided by judges with 'religious-satanic conspiracies' in their mind.

    This is just wrong, narrow-minded and offensive to people that are coming from Italy (in that case).

  11. #71
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eobane View Post
    I dont know what to think - is she innocent or not.

    But one thing I am certain of, I feel sad, that people feel the need to bash a civilized country's legal system.

    Maybe some of you read the post on E-online from Taryn Ryder. It makes me sad, and please, don't be offended, that apparently only the US are to have a correct and fair judicial system and any other country's is 'medieval' and presided by judges with 'religious-satanic conspiracies' in their mind.

    This is just wrong, narrow-minded and offensive to people that are coming from Italy (in that case).
    I've also been a bit taken aback by the way the American media is portraying the Italian judicial system. Yes, it is done differently, but that does not mean it's a lesser or inferior system. Also, the media in the US (particularly 48 Hours) have not shown a lot of information that casts much more doubt on the veracity of Amanda's case. When I first watched it, I wondered if she was innocent as well. It was only after I looked carefully at the evidence presented at the trial that I got a clearer and more informed picture.

    It's easy to pick apart the way another country does things. There were certainly flaws in the way the team of forensic scientists did their job, but that does not mean that Amanda Knox gets a "get out of jail free" card. I really hate hearing court trials where people get off on a "technicality" because their lawyers are very adept at finding minuscule reasons to cast doubt on forensic results. One of the more common (as seen in this case) is that the "DNA could have been contaminated in the lab". If a scientific lab has made even a minor flaw in any part of examining the evidence, then a lawyer can argue that the evidence should not be presented.

    Those sitting on the jury were convinced by the evidence presented to them that Amanda Knox was guilty. Having looked carefully at as much evidence as possible, I agree with them.

    By the way, have I missed something?? Where is anybody saying that the Italian system has "religious-satanic conspiracies"?? I haven't heard any American media/posters say anything like that.


  12. #72
    Silver Member eobane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    Holy shit! No she isn't. Never get arrested in Italy, you might get some wacko judge with religious-satanic conspiracies plaguing his feeble mind.

    Thanks for posting that. Amanda is definitely innocent.
    in this very thread.

  13. #73
    Elite Member ManxMouse's Avatar
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    Gah, Meredith's family looks like the damned Munsters.
    Santa is an elitist mother fucker -- giving expensive shit to rich kids and nothing to poor kids.

  14. #74
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManxMouse View Post
    Gah, Meredith's family looks like the damned Munsters.
    Marilyn Munster was hot.

  15. #75
    Elite Member ManxMouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    Marilyn Munster was hot.
    well, there's no Marilyn amongst them....just Lily, Herman, and .... I don't know what.
    Santa is an elitist mother fucker -- giving expensive shit to rich kids and nothing to poor kids.

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