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Thread: Gentle innocent or brutal killer: Seattle student charged with murder in Italy

  1. #46
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    Some of this is damning evidence, some shows extremely suspicious behaviour:

    * A knife was found (which had been cleaned with bleach) that had the victim's blood on the tip, and Amanda's blood on it. Although it may not have been the knife that killed Meredith, it may have been the knife held to Meredith's neck.

    * A break-in had been staged to make it look as though somebody had smashed through Meredith's window, and killed her. Only problem - the window had been smashed from the inside.

    * Amanda told police conflicting stories of what happened that night, including how Meredith was being murdered and how Amanda covered her ears to block out Meredith's screams.

    * Surveillance footage showed Amanda and her boyfriend in a lingerie shop the day after the murder. They are shown giggling and laughing. The shop assistant said their conversation was very graphic and they were discussing how they would soon be having "wild sex". Here are pictures:

    New pictures reveal the day after Meredith Kercher was found dead, murder suspects Amanda Knox and her Italian boyfriend went shopping for lingerie and discussed having "wild sex".

    CCTV footage clearly shows Knox and Raffaele Sollecito laughing and kissing as they picked out underwear barely 24 hours after the British student's semi-naked body was found in a pool of blood in her bedroom.
    Scroll down for more...

    Laughing: Knox and Sollecito share a joke

    The couple, who are being held in prison on suspicion of murder and sexual violence, had told police in the Italian town of Perugia that they were horrified when they saw the chilling scene on November 2. They were photographed together looking distraught.

    Yet according to a leaked witness statement from a shop owner, the next day they boldly discussed sex and embraced in full view of other shoppers.

    Scroll down for more...


    Kiss: The pair embrace in full view of customers


    Shopping: Knox and Sollecito look at sexy lingerie
    * The washing machine was still warm when police arrived the next day. Another room mate (Filomena) testified that it contained Meredith's clothes as well as Amanda's clothes.

    * Knox said she stayed at Sollecito’s house all night and awoke about 10:30AM. However, a witness placed her at a local grocery store waiting for it to open at 7:30 AM., where she allegedly bought bleach and other cleaning products. Police reportedly later found a receipt for these cleaning supplies when investigating Sollecito’s residence.

    * Knox was first found at the flat the morning after the murder with a mop and bucket, which she said she had gotten to mop up water that Sollecito had spilled when a water pipe broke when he was cooking pasta the night of the murder.

    * One of the flat roommates testified that Knox had a scratch or welt on her neck the morning after the murder which wasn’t there a day earlier.

    * Knox and Sollecito have changed their stories several times, even trying to implicate the other. For example, Knox has stated that she saw blood on Sollecito’s hands that evening but assumed it was from the fish he had prepared for dinner. Also, she reportedly suggested that he may have arose from bed to complete the murder and then brought back the murder weapon (with Kercher’s DNA on it) and pressed it into her sleeping hand in order to implicate her.

    * Filomena said of Knox “She told me: ‘It’s very odd. I’ve just come back to the house and the door is open. I had a shower but there’s blood everywhere. I’m going to get Raff. Meredith is nowhere to be seen. Oh God, maybe something’s happened to her, something tragic’.”
    Filomena said she replied “But Amanda. I don’t understand. Explain to me, because there’s something odd. The door’s open. You take a shower. There’s blood. But where’s Meredith?… The door’s open. I go in. There’s blood. I take a shower? I don’t know about you, but I really don’t think that that’s normal.”

    * Reportedly, Knox showed no fear of being at the flat after the murder, but instead expressed concern about rent obligations and of finding another place to live.

    Here is proof that Amanda Knox is a MURDERER | News Forums - Current Affairs | STLtoday

    Pictures of the moment Foxy Knoxy went shopping for sexy lingerie the day after Meredith's murder| News | This is London

    Amanda Knox verdict just days away | West Seattle Herald / White Center News

    Meredith Kercher Crime Scene Photos - NSFW. Shows grainy pictures of crime scene.


  2. #47
    Friend of Gossip Rocks! buttmunch's Avatar
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    Here's a report on the DNA evidence. I find the stuff about the bra particularly weird.

    Amanda Knox Sollecito DNA Petition
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  3. #48
    Elite Member t13nif's Avatar
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    Gah. I don't know what to believe. Both sides are very convincing.
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  4. #49
    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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    ^ exactly so there is reasonable doubt then (?)

  5. #50
    Elite Member Charmed Hour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buttmunch View Post
    Here's a report on the DNA evidence. I find the stuff about the bra particularly weird.

    Amanda Knox Sollecito DNA Petition
    At the least, imo, it's shoddy police work. They collected it 46 days later even though it was on the crime scene video and it was moved? Something sounds off there.

    Quote Originally Posted by AliceInWonderland View Post
    ^ exactly so there is reasonable doubt then (?)
    The Italian justice system doesn't have the same interpretation of "reasonable doubt" as the American system. They don't use English Common Law as their foundation, it's based on the Inquisition and medieval law.

  6. #51
    Elite Member Cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarzy View Post
    I wouldn't go by any 'info' from American sources about this case. Its disgusting how they've handled this case and been so biased. It's as if they can't stand the thought of a foreign country daring to find an American guilty.
    Well, then can you link us to some non-American sources?

    Quote Originally Posted by azoria View Post
    IMO Knox was given a fair trial, decent defense, and convicted by a court after a fair hearing and consideration of evidence. From everything I've read, the Italian system is surely different from the [extremely flawed] American criminal justice system, but due process was observed and a decision handed down. Whether or not she is guilty I don't know, but the Italian system functioned according to law and she was lawfully sentenced according to the the evidence presented. 26 years for pre-meditated murder ain't so bad.
    How on EARTH can you think that?! Did you read the CBS article I posted? One of the craziest things IMO is that the judge reads the blog of an Italian psychic who claims to speak to a dead Priest, and through that 'source' the judge decided on this 'extreme sex' theory and admitted it as evidence. And other chunks of evidence were ruled inadmissable by Italy's highest court, yet through some quirk in the legal system it was STILL allowed to be shown on video screens by the prosecution in court. And the jury isn't sequestered so they have all heard every crazy-ass thing that's been in the media.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseguy View Post
    Some of this is damning evidence, some shows extremely suspicious behaviour:

    * A knife was found (which had been cleaned with bleach) that had the victim's blood on the tip, and Amanda's blood on it. Although it may not have been the knife that killed Meredith, it may have been the knife held to Meredith's neck.

    * A break-in had been staged to make it look as though somebody had smashed through Meredith's window, and killed her. Only problem - the window had been smashed from the inside.

    * Amanda told police conflicting stories of what happened that night, including how Meredith was being murdered and how Amanda covered her ears to block out Meredith's screams.

    * Surveillance footage showed Amanda and her boyfriend in a lingerie shop the day after the murder. They are shown giggling and laughing. The shop assistant said their conversation was very graphic and they were discussing how they would soon be having "wild sex".
    I read that the knife had the victim's blood on it, and Amanda's boyfriend's DNA on it. And it had a not-100% match of Amanda's DNA on the handle, which makes sense bc Amanda had been over at her boyfriend's cooking.

    The defense also has video of the crime scene investigation and there were so many things that were wrong: a bloody footprint was just wiped up by an investigator. Strands of hair in Meredith's hand were just discarded, and a female investigator at the crime scene didn't have her own hair tied back.

    Also, the bit about the roommate is extremely unreliable. An independant investigator from the US traveled to Italy and was let into the same apartment to see if he could hear 3 sets of footsteps or screams like the roommate testified. He couldn't. All of this is in that CBS article I cited earlier.

    None of these points are damning IMO. What the hell does it matter if the couple were caught on film the next day planning to have wild sex? People do that! Especially young people. I have no idea why that is even considered relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseguy View Post
    * The washing machine was still warm when police arrived the next day. Another room mate (Filomena) testified that it contained Meredith's clothes as well as Amanda's clothes.

    * Knox said she stayed at Sollecito’s house all night and awoke about 10:30AM. However, a witness placed her at a local grocery store waiting for it to open at 7:30 AM., where she allegedly bought bleach and other cleaning products. Police reportedly later found a receipt for these cleaning supplies when investigating Sollecito’s residence.

    * Knox was first found at the flat the morning after the murder with a mop and bucket, which she said she had gotten to mop up water that Sollecito had spilled when a water pipe broke when he was cooking pasta the night of the murder.

    * One of the flat roommates testified that Knox had a scratch or welt on her neck the morning after the murder which wasn’t there a day earlier.

    * Knox and Sollecito have changed their stories several times, even trying to implicate the other. For example, Knox has stated that she saw blood on Sollecito’s hands that evening but assumed it was from the fish he had prepared for dinner. Also, she reportedly suggested that he may have arose from bed to complete the murder and then brought back the murder weapon (with Kercher’s DNA on it) and pressed it into her sleeping hand in order to implicate her.

    * Filomena said of Knox “She told me: ‘It’s very odd. I’ve just come back to the house and the door is open. I had a shower but there’s blood everywhere. I’m going to get Raff. Meredith is nowhere to be seen. Oh God, maybe something’s happened to her, something tragic’.”
    Filomena said she replied “But Amanda. I don’t understand. Explain to me, because there’s something odd. The door’s open. You take a shower. There’s blood. But where’s Meredith?… The door’s open. I go in. There’s blood. I take a shower? I don’t know about you, but I really don’t think that that’s normal.”

    * Reportedly, Knox showed no fear of being at the flat after the murder, but instead expressed concern about rent obligations and of finding another place to live.
    All those bullet points are from that first link, which isn't sourced. Its just some random dude on the internet typing it- who knows where it came from.

  7. #52
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cali View Post
    Well, then can you link us to some non-American sources?
    This is from the Micheli report:

    Specifically the DNA belonging to Meredith, Knox, Sollecito, and Guede which was found at the scene of the crime, and on the suspected murder weapon found, apparently hidden, in Raffaele Sollecito’s house.
    Traces of Meredith’s DNA have been found on a knife compatible with the wounds that caused her death. Amanda Knox ‘s genetic material was identified on the knife handle. DNA belonging to Sollecito has been found on the clasp of the victim’s bra. And more DNA showing Rudy Guede’s genetic profile was found on the victim’s body and elsewhere in the house.
    In summary, the biological sources and locations where DNA belonging to the three defendants was found are these:
    • Guede’s DNA (from epithelial cells) was found inside Meredith, on toilet paper, on the right side of Meredith’s bra, mixed with Meredith’s DNA on the her purse zip, and on the left cuff of Meredith’s light blue sweater
    • Sollecito’s DNA (from epithelial cells) was found on Meredith’s bra clasp, mixed with Meredith’s DNA, and on one cigarette butt found in the kitchen
    • Knox’s DNA (from epithelial cells) was found on the knife sheath, and close to the blade junction. It was not possible to ascertain both the haematic and epithelial source of Meredith’s DNA on the knife blade, due to the scarcity of the sample. But Judge Micheli noted that reasonable doubt persist that blood could have been present also.
    • Other significant biological traces belonging to Meredith - for example, DNA originating from the blood-trace footprints revealed by luminol found in Filomena’s bedroom, as already reported at trial.
    Claims of contamination and “poor matches” of the DNA samples were raised by the Sollecito and Knox defenses, although not by Guede’s. The DNA expert Dr. Stefanoni’s arguments in reply to the defenses’ claims are summarized in Judge Micheli‘s report.

    Dr Stefanoni reported that the locus ascribable to Meredith and identified on the knife blade shows readings of 41 and 28 RFU. Conventionally, RFU values lower than 50 can be defined as low. But she maintained that the profile matched Meredith’s by explaining that there is no immediate correlation between the height of the peaks obtained by electropherogram and expressed in RFU, and the reliability of the biological investigation.
    In fact “even if statistically - in most cases - the RFU data is directly proportional to the possibility of a certain interpretation of the analysis result, on the other side many cases of high peaks of difficult interpretation exist (because of background noises), as well as low peaks that are objectively unquestionable, hence the need to proceed to the examination of data that is apparently scarce, but that mustn’t be considered unreliable per se.”
    *The use of multiplex PCR and fluorescent dye technology in the automated detection and analysis of short tandem repeat loci provides not only qualitative information about the profile - i.e. which alleles are present - but can provide also quantitative information on the relative intensities of the bands, and is therefore a measure of the amount of amplified DNA.”
    So if on one side Dr Stefanoni admits that the RFU readings are low, on the other her experience suggests that many cases of unquestionable matches exist showing readings lower than 50 RFU, and this appears to be the case with Meredith’s DNA sample on the knife.
    Contamination in the laboratory is categorically excluded by Dr Stefanoni. The samples were processed with maximum care in order to avoid any contamination during lab procedures. Contamination during the collection phase is excluded by Judge Micheli, as the samples were collected by different officers at different times in different places (example Via della Pergola at 9:40am on Nov 6. 2007, and Sollecito’s apartment at 10:00am, on the same day, by a different ILE team).
    As for Sollecito’s DNA found on the bra clasp, the match is unquestionable, according to the lab reports. Samples from crime scenes very often contain genetic material from more than one person (e.g. Rudy Guede’s DNA has been identified in a mixture with the victim’s DNA in a few places), and well-known recommendations and protocols exist in order to de-convolute mixed samples into single genetic profiles.
    So if the lab reports indicate that unquestionable biological evidence of Sollecito’s DNA was found on the bra clasp, at the present time we have no reason to believe that these recommendations weren’t followed and that therefore the reports are not to be trusted.
    As to cells “flying around” depositing themselves – and their DNA content - here and there around the murder scene, there have been some imaginative theories advanced, to say the least.
    The reality though is that although epithelial cells do shed, they don’t sprout little wings to flock to one precise spot, nor grow feet to crawl and concentrate on a piece of evidence. There needs to be some kind of pressure on a surface in order to deposit the amount of biological material necessary to yield a reliable PCR analysis result. A simple brushing will not do.
    As a matter of fact, Dr Stefanoni agreed with Guede’s defense that Guede‘s genetic material found on the left sleeve of Meredith’s blouse was minimal; and this was because the DNA found there belonged to the victim and was not a mixture. In the situation where there is a clear disproportion between quantitative data of two DNA’s coexisting in a biological trace, the PCR will amplify the most abundant DNA.
    As agreed by Dr. Stefanoni and Guede’s defense, the conclusion here was that on the left sleeve there was plenty of Meredith’s DNA but very little of Guede’s. (This was used by his defense to deny that Guede had exerted violence on Meredith’s wrist).
    After listening to the arguments of the prosecution and the defenses, Judge Micheli provided reasons why he rejected the contamination claims and ruled that all the biological traces identified as reflecting Sollecito’s and Knox’s DNA are admissible as evidence. He arrived at the conclusion that the DNA evidence is sound and, considered along with the non-biological proof, he decided there was more than enough evidence to order Knox and Sollecito to stand trial.

  8. #53
    Elite Member t13nif's Avatar
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    Did Sollecito put forth a reason why his DNA might have been on the clasp of Meredith's bra or did they just dispute the evidence? Maybe he had an underwear fetish and went digging through Meredith's drawers at one time?
    "Hope everyone' shavin a good one!" - Karistiona

  9. #54
    Silver Member Popsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t13nif View Post
    Did Sollecito put forth a reason why his DNA might have been on the clasp of Meredith's bra or did they just dispute the evidence? Maybe he had an underwear fetish and went digging through Meredith's drawers at one time?
    His defence for this is police contamination as the clasp was not found for days after.
    Your theory sounds ridiculous, like he would do that but not leave DNA anywhere but the clasp, used for undoing a bra.

  10. #55
    Elite Member t13nif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popsicle View Post
    His defence for this is police contamination as the clasp was not found for days after.
    Your theory sounds ridiculous, like he would do that but not leave DNA anywhere but the clasp, used for undoing a bra.
    JFC don't take this so personally. It's not MY theory, it's A theory--one that his laywer or Joe-blow down the street might have come up with.
    "Hope everyone' shavin a good one!" - Karistiona

  11. #56
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charmed Hour View Post

    The Italian justice system doesn't have the same interpretation of "reasonable doubt" as the American system. They don't use English Common Law as their foundation, it's based on the Inquisition and medieval law.
    the italian legal system is based on civil law, which is the most widespread legal system in the world.
    Legal systems of the world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Civil law (legal system) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    as opposed to common law, which is the system in place in most of the english speaking world.
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  12. #57
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    [quote=Cali;1973978]I read that the knife had the victim's blood on it, and Amanda's boyfriend's DNA on it. And it had a not-100% match of Amanda's DNA on the handle, which makes sense bc Amanda had been over at her boyfriend's cooking.

    What was the victim's blood doing on a knife that was in the boyfriend's apartment?? The victim had never been inside the apartment. Forensic scientists testified that the knife had Amanda's DNA on the handle and the victim's blood on the tip. Perhaps Amanda held the knife to the victim's neck as she was being assaulted.

    Also, the bit about the roommate is extremely unreliable. An independant investigator from the US traveled to Italy and was let into the same apartment to see if he could hear 3 sets of footsteps or screams like the roommate testified. He couldn't. All of this is in that CBS article I cited earlier.


    That was not the Filomena (room mate) who testified to hearing 3 sets of footsteps or screams. That was a neighbor across the street and she can be seen on the 48 hours program called "A Long Way from Home". So the room mate's testimony is very reliable - she was there the next morning and stated that Amanda's behavior was highly suspicious.

    None of these points are damning IMO. What the hell does it matter if the couple were caught on film the next day planning to have wild sex? People do that! Especially young people. I have no idea why that is even considered relevant.

    You're kidding. So, if your room mate was just brutally raped and murdered in the home you live in, then you'd just go shopping for lingerie the next day and be laughing and giggling??? Okaaay then.

    Would you also go into your home if the door was wide open and saw blood on the floor? Not only that, but then continue inside and then have a shower?? Because that's what Amanda told the police. Then when it was proven that Amanda had spent the night in the house, how did she explain everything? That she covered her ears with her hands to block out the victim's screaming. Oh and then she blamed police for making her say that.

    Amanda used bleach to thoroughly, thoroughly clean that house. She also washed her own clothes overnight and the victim's clothing was also in the wash.

    So yes, Amanda Knox is as guilty as hell and she's lucky she didn't get life in prison.








  13. #58
    Elite Member Geest's Avatar
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    Hm, I also think she is lucky to be tried in Italy and not in like Texas ... She's behind bars but not on a death row, if she IS innocent, she has time to prove it (I'm sure it's happened to others in history) if not, then she is where she deserves to be.
    To me, buying the bleach means she at least knew about it...

  14. #59
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    ^^^Yes, it's strong circumstantial evidence. Here is further information about the bleach:
    Police said that further evidence against Mr Sollecito had come to light in the form of receipts from a shop near his flat for bleach, bought on the morning after the murder and allegedly used to clean an 8in kitchen knife and Mr Sollecito’s Nike trainers. The first receipt was timed at 8.30am on November 2, and the second 45 minutes later, suggesting that the first container of bleach had not been sufficient. The bleach was also used to clean up the flat itself.
    Tests have shown Ms Kercher’s DNA on the tip of the knife and Ms Knox’s DNA close to the handle. Police suspect that Mr Sollecito and Ms Knox attempted to clean the knife, failing to realise that they would still leave identifiable DNA traces.
    The till receipts call into question Mr Sollecito’s account of events on November 2, since he had testified that he did not get up until 10am, when he was woken by Ms Knox.
    He told police that Ms Knox had returned to his flat at 1am but in the morning decided to return to her own cottage to have a shower, taking him with her. They found blood in the bathroom and a smashed window, with Ms Kercher’s door locked. Police believe, however, that Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito smashed the window themselves to simulate a break-in.
    Italian press reports at the weekend said that Ms Kercher had often rowed with Ms Knox over her “slovenliness” in the bathroom and her habit of bringing home strange men.
    Times Online

    And this...
    PERUGIA, Italy (AP) - Seattle student Amanda Knox, on trial for allegedly murdering her British roommate in Italy, was recognized by a witness Saturday as a woman in a grocery store the early morning after the killing, although Knox says she woke up at mid-morning that day.

    Knox and her former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito are accused of killing Meredith Kercher, a 21-year-old British student who was found dead Nov. 2, 2007.

    The prosecutors say that Kercher was killed the night before, between 9 p.m. and 11 p.m., at the apartment she shared with Knox after what had begun as a sex game.

    The two defendants deny wrongdoing. Sollecito said he spent the night at his house, and that he does not remember whether Knox spent part or all of the night with him. Knox, after conflicting statements, eventually said she was not home. She has said she awoke at Sollecito's house at mid-morning.

    Witness Marco Quintavalle said Saturday that a young woman entered his grocery store near Sollecito's house in Perugia at 7:45 a.m. on Nov. 2, 2007. He said the woman was waiting for him to open the store and that he and she exchanged glances when she entered.

    "It really struck me, she had a very pale face and these light eyes," said Quintavalle. "I can still see the image in my head."

    Asked by the presiding judge if that woman was present in the courtroom, Quintavalle said he was sure it was Knox.....

    .....Other testimony Saturday focused on whether Sollecito's apartment smelled of bleach.

    Prosecutors say that when police went to Sollecito's house on Nov. 6, 2007 - the day both defendants were arrested - the house smelled of bleach.

    Investigators allege the defendants might have used it to eliminate any possible trace or contamination on any item that might have been at the death scene.

    A woman from Ecuador who used to be the cleaner in Sollecito's apartment around the time of the killing told the court she never used bleach.

    ......Prosecutors say it is significant that the bleach was not used by the cleaning woman, yet it was smelled the day after by police.
    Witness contradicts Amanda Knox in murder trial | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | News


  15. #60
    Elite Member gas_chick's Avatar
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    I think she and her boyfriend are innocent. The video that sparked interest was ridiculous. They both looked shell shocked. The prosecutor himself is coming up on charges that were postponed until after this trial for misconduct. I don't care at all that she is a fellow american. This would be a travesty if she was from anywhere in the world.

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