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Thread: Gentle innocent or brutal killer: Seattle student charged with murder in Italy

  1. #181
    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    sb has a point. i do remember hearing about how some of the arguments used by meredith's family and friends to imply that amanda was a bad seed and therefore capable of murder were about how she was messy, had sex and used drugs... and that's supposed to make her a murderer, too?

    and yeah, the focus on the trial was to find out whether or not these two were guilty, not to pay tribute to the victim. how was she 'forgotten' if the only reason this happened was to find out who killed her? but the focus has to be on the accused and on determining their fate, that's the whole point of a trial.
    I agree. I feel bad for Meredith's family but a murder trial is not about the person who was murdered and what a great person they were or were not. In this case the prosecution messed up big time. I think there was a rush to judgement and Amanda is indeed a liar. That doesn't mean she committed murder. It's really unfortuante that the rush to judgement and poorly conducted investigation, have further added to the trauma for Merdedith's family.

    Quote Originally Posted by fgg View Post
    if that's all it takes, it's going to get REALLY quiet around here...
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  2. #182
    Elite Member MontanaMama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel1973 View Post
    maybe amanda was accused because she's a fucking liar? maybe once you lie so many times, it starts to appear as if you have something to hide. when you implicate innocent people, what does that say about you? what meredith's family is doing/has done is what comes natural. the kercher family isn't the party responsible for amanda being in prison and they aren't responsible for what the cops did. actually, all the shit that I've seen posted here seems to be now turning the family into victims. losing their daughter/sister wasn't enough, now they can be villified for defending her life/personality/character?
    You make a good point but it doesn't have to be hero/villain. Yes, Amanda lied and that is an indication of guilt of something, but once you get past that to the evidence of the actual crime, things kind of fall apart. Meredith's family has been through a lot and the sensationalization and all the tawdry tabloid claims about Amanda doesn't really help them get past anything. The fact remains that they do know what happened to Meredith, they do know who's responsible and the fact that he is serving a lighter sentence than he deserves is not at Amanda's feet. It's not unusual for cops/prosecutors to overplay their hand and make a really bad deal with one criminal to go after another. In this case, they played their hand the wrong way, to the detriment of honoring the victim, Meredith. But the evidence that Amanda was actually involved in the crime just isn't there, so she is also a victim, not to the same degree as Meredith and Meredith's family, but still a victim of headline seeking prosecutors. Yesterday was about Amanda, hopefully today and going forward can be about Meredith. Amanda will still do her interviews/books, etc. because she has a story and it's her story, which she's entitled to - she was an international headline for 4 years. But this too will fade.
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    Elite Member Mel1973's Avatar
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    They don't know exactly what happened - they've been told repeatedly that it was more than one person that committed the crime. They can't help what the headlines have been or what's gone on with Amanda. I don't find Amanda believable in any way. I don't feel sorry for her - have not from the beginning. Something about her just rubs me the wrong way. I find her unlikable and cold and maybe that ( when added to the lies ) tell me more about her than the evidence.
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    Elite Member effie2's Avatar
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    This case makes me angry the same way the MacKaan,s did.
    The evidence is there...depends how you want to see it.
    The pair lied repeatedly and they still do.Of course if they were my kids i would do anything to set them free,inoccent or guilty .
    But if the bastards got my own kid,s life,i would gun them both down.
    I dont think they will ever be *clean*.This is not a clear cut case.Too many lies and questions.As you can see,i am talking about both ,it is not an Amanda versus Meredith situation.
    And to be honest when i saw American TV crews hugging and shouting WE DID IT..i could not feel kindly towards them.(that is nicely put instead of fuck off..)
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  5. #185
    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel1973 View Post
    They don't know exactly what happened - they've been told repeatedly that it was more than one person that committed the crime.
    They have been told this by the same people who fucked up the investigation and said there was evidence when in fact there was not.
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  6. #186
    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    Town in Italy reacts to Amanda Knox acquittal

    During the years after the killing, Knox was portrayed by the British media and Italian prosecutors as a witch, a "she-devil," who had cajoled her Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, into a sexual game with her roommate Meredith Kercher, and then forced him — a "dog on a leash" — to hold down the girl while she stabbed her to death.

    None of it was true, the eight-member jury said. The jurors had two options to acquit: determining there wasn't enough evidence or that the pair simply didn't commit the crime. The jury ruled the latter, clearing Knox and Sollecito.

    Although the court won't release its reasons for clearing the two for weeks, the discrediting of the DNA evidence may have been the fatal blow to the prosecution's case in the absence of a clear motive.

    Nearly forgotten is that justice may have already been done for Kercher. Rudy Guede, a small-time drug dealer and drifter from the Ivory Coast, was convicted in the killing.

    Police traced a fingerprint on a cushion under Kercher's body to Guede, but only after arresting Knox and Sollecito. Rather than conclude that Guede killed Kercher in a break-in, thus freeing the others, the police added him to the sex-killing plot.

    "They fully believe in her innocence. You can't blame them for that," Lyle Kercher, the victim's brother, said of the Knox family. "But it's obviously hard for us."
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  7. #187
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernbelle View Post
    They are certainly entitled to their opinion, but I don't think that it was appropriate for them to continue to assert that Amanda had done this, and then to suggest that it was because Meredith was "all that they weren't", referring to Meredith's friends. I did not like the way that they basically assert that Meredith was better than everyone else. I just feel like they wanted Amanda held responsible for this, and they weren't open to considering any other possibilities, even when the evidence pointed at someone else. I don't know why that is. Maybe they have information we don't have. Who knows. But I found their fixation on pinning the whole thing on Amanda misguided.

    And while I certainly understand that they want their daughter remembered, Amanda and Raffaele's trial is not the appropriate venue for tributes to Meredith and I don't see why they would expect Meredith's accomplishments, personality, and positive qualities to be a focus of the trial or be angry and upset when that isn't the case. It's about the evidence, plain and simple, and Meredith's shining personality is not evidence. I think the trial was already too sensationalized from the beginning, and as I remember, originally there was a VERY heavy emphasis placed on Meredith and what a great person she was, which was part of the reason that Amanda was immediately vilified. I think from the beginning, it was very much portrayed as a Meredith vs. Amanda situation, placing them on polar ends with Meredith as the "good" one and Amanda as the "bad" one. I was pleased when they did start to focus more on the actual evidence and less on the characterizations that were made early on. There will be plenty of opportunities to do a beautiful tribute to Meredith and to acknowledge the person that she was. But, in a trial that needs to be based on facts, not sensationalism, I don't think there's really a place for that. I think justice can really get derailed when people allow their emotions and affinity for the victim to cloud their understanding of the facts, and when they are made to feel that they're being disloyal to the victim if they don't hold the defendant responsible, even when the evidence doesn't clearly support that individual's guilt.

    I also don't understand why Meredith's family feels that they have no idea what happened to their daughter. I think it's pretty clear what happened and why, and in fact it was established when Guede was convicted. Guede had done this before. It was not the first time he had broken into someone's home to steal things and used the toilet without flushing. This was his M.O. He broke into the apartment and Meredith probably interrupted him in the middle of a robbery. I don't think it was motivated by jealousy or had anything to do with Meredith on a personal level. He was simply a heartless criminal who had no problem killing someone that interfered with his robbery. Having that information, I don't see how her parents can still draw the conclusion that because Amanda and Raffaele were set free, there is suddenly complete confusion about what happened and there are no answers. I think it's MORE clear what happened when you eliminate them from the equation. Trying to explain how they could have been involved in this and magically removed all of their DNA from the scene is much more confusing to me than accepting that Guede did this and acted alone.

    As for her implication of Lumumba, I agree that is bizarre and she should be held liable for that, but I don't think it points to her involvement. I think that she accused him under intense police pressure and persuasion, during an interrogation conducted in a language which she was not fluent in at the time. From what I read, it was her understanding that she was describing a hypothetical scenario such as, "What if he was involved?" As to why she didn't immediately recant or set the record straight, who knows. Maybe she was just so terrified that she just went along with it. It was wrong and she should definitely be held accountable, but I think as a scared college student being accused of murder in a foreign country, it's hard to say what you would do out of desperation, panic, or just utter confusion/translation problems. I don't think it means that she's guilty of murder, though.
    So my guess is that you didn't read anything that I posted....
    Quote Originally Posted by sluce View Post
    I agree. I feel bad for Meredith's family but a murder trial is not about the person who was murdered and what a great person they were or were not. In this case the prosecution messed up big time. I think there was a rush to judgement and Amanda is indeed a liar. That doesn't mean she committed murder. It's really unfortuante that the rush to judgement and poorly conducted investigation, have further added to the trauma for Merdedith's family.
    Great point.
    I don't think that Amanda Know being a liar & being a murderer are either mutually exclusive or mutually together; but her continual lying gives me pause. They still don't know exactly where she & her BF were on the might of the murder. The laptop they siad they watched a film on wasn't used & they both had their mobile phones switched off which was unprecidented for her (and many teenage girls). It all gives me pause.

    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaMama View Post
    You make a good point but it doesn't have to be hero/villain. Yes, Amanda lied and that is an indication of guilt of something, but once you get past that to the evidence of the actual crime, things kind of fall apart. Meredith's family has been through a lot and the sensationalization and all the tawdry tabloid claims about Amanda doesn't really help them get past anything. The fact remains that they do know what happened to Meredith, they do know who's responsible and the fact that he is serving a lighter sentence than he deserves is not at Amanda's feet. It's not unusual for cops/prosecutors to overplay their hand and make a really bad deal with one criminal to go after another. In this case, they played their hand the wrong way, to the detriment of honoring the victim, Meredith. But the evidence that Amanda was actually involved in the crime just isn't there, so she is also a victim, not to the same degree as Meredith and Meredith's family, but still a victim of headline seeking prosecutors. Yesterday was about Amanda, hopefully today and going forward can be about Meredith. Amanda will still do her interviews/books, etc. because she has a story and it's her story, which she's entitled to - she was an international headline for 4 years. But this too will fade.
    The other guy was an adoptee of a rich italian family, I was lead to believe that he made a plea-bargin for a lighter sentence, but he was/is definatedly a troubled person.
    I don't know (any more) what the evidence shows as it seems to have been tampered with or not treated as it should have been. i think that the police investigation that is about to start is going to show something there.
    Maybe Amanda Knox & Raffaele Sollecito did do assist in it, maybe they did not but the court has cleared them, this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by effie2 View Post
    This case makes me angry the same way the MacKaan,s did.
    The evidence is there...depends how you want to see it.
    The pair lied repeatedly and they still do.
    Of course if they were my kids i would do anything to set them free,inoccent or guilty .
    But if the bastards got my own kid,s life,i would gun them both down.
    I dont think they will ever be *clean*.This is not a clear cut case.Too many lies and questions.As you can see,i am talking about both ,it is not an Amanda versus Meredith situation.
    And to be honest when i saw American TV crews hugging and shouting WE DID IT..i could not feel kindly towards them.(that is nicely put instead of fuck off..)
    Agreed. A trial should be a trial of evidence not in the media. This has been played out as US Media Vs Italian Police & that is wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel1973 View Post
    They don't know exactly what happened - they've been told repeatedly that it was more than one person that committed the crime. They can't help what the headlines have been or what's gone on with Amanda. I don't find Amanda believable in any way. I don't feel sorry for her - have not from the beginning. Something about her just rubs me the wrong way. I find her unlikable and cold and maybe that ( when added to the lies ) tell me more about her than the evidence.
    No, it just tells you that she is unlikable and cold.

    There wasn't adequate evidence against her and her boyfriend. They could well be guilty of something. Unless one of them rats out the other, we will probably never know. Even then, which one would you choose to believe?

    On the other hand, they could both be innocent, or one could be covering for the other (unlikely at this point, I'd say). If there's reasonable doubt, she should not be imprisoned.

    I feel sorry for both the families. I can't imagine having my child going to a foreign country and getting accused of a crime, and then trying to navigate a system of which I know nothing.

    And I can't imagine sending my child to study abroad and having her murdered, and wondering if everyone involved is being brought to justice.

    The business about Amanda being cold, messy, slutty, not nice, whatever, well, roommates are like that sometimes.

  9. #189
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    I would have acquitted her based on insufficient evidence, but at the same time there is no doubt in my head whatsoever that she is guilty of something that night. And I think that the celebrations, etc., are ridiculously tacky. You're celebrating a girl who more than likely had a role in murder and also fingered the wrong guy and ruined his reputation. This is not some innocent little doe-eyed girl here. The whole thing is just a miscarriage of justice all around, and I do feel badly for the Kerchers, this circus has forgotten what the real tragedy here is. On one hand, I am glad justice in some sort of way has been served, because there was obviously insufficient evidence and reasonable doubt remained, but it doesn't make me joyous to see her freed. It just makes me angry at how this case was handled from the start. To me, it's a sad day, not a happy one.
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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel1973 View Post
    Something about her just rubs me the wrong way. I find her unlikable and cold and maybe that ( when added to the lies ) tell me more about her than the evidence.
    she's unlikeable and cold and a liar. that's not proof that she's a murderer and the justice system isn't supposed to be a popularity contest.
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    Elite Member rollo's Avatar
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    ^ That wasn't used as 'proof.' There was plenty of other 'proof' but it was discredited this time around. I would say Knox's celebrations are premature, tacky and self serving and it is going to be odious to see her doing an OJ Simpson (IMO) around the world while a girl purportedly her friend lies murdered. Btw, I don't see her so-called boyfriend playing the same game.

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    I don't have much experience with marijuana, but is it possible that she and her boyfriend could honestly not remember in detail what they were doing that night if they were under the influence of drugs? I know for some people, especially when combined with alcohol, drugs can have that effect. Maybe they honestly just did not remember what they did and as a result couldn't provide a unified, consistent story, even if their activities were not criminal in nature.

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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    pot messes with your short term memory.
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    Elite Member effie2's Avatar
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    Too many maybes for comfort..even the ones supporting her are not so sure.
    The Italians are not celebrating the release of Solessito,i doubt he will get a warm welcome around,much less a media storm and money out of it.
    There is a huge difference in mentality between Americans making a hero out of the girl and Italian scepticism towards the boy.
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    Kercher Family: 'We're Back To Square One'



    Meredith Kercher's brother has said her family feel they are back at "square one" after the pair convicted of her murder were freed.
    Lyle Kercher said they accepted the Italian court's decision to clear Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito of killing Meredith.
    But he said they were now fresh questions about what "truly happened" on the night she died in November 2007.
    "While we accept the decision that was handed down yesterday and respect the court and the Italian justice system, we do find that we are now left obviously looking at this again and thinking how a decision that was so certain two years ago has been so emphatically overturned now," he said.

    He, Meredith's sister Stephanie and her mother Arline held a press conference in Perugia before flying home to the UK.
    They were in court on Monday to hear a judge quash Miss Knox and Mr Sollecito's convictions, four years after they were first jailed.
    Meredith's father John has stayed in London, from where he branded the court's decision "ludicrous" and "crazy".

    At the press conference, Stephanie said forgiveness was impossible until the family know the truth about the murder.
    "Until the truth comes out, we can't forgive anyone. No-one has admitted to it," she said.
    Stephanie said the "biggest disappointment" was knowing that there was someone else out there who was responsible for killing her sister.
    "We don't want the wrong people put away for a crime they didn't commit," she said. "It may be a case of waiting another year to get the truth."
    Her mother Arline added that the family was "still absorbing" the court's decision and said: "It's early days."

    John Kercher said the family are "shocked" and were wondering if anyone else would now be brought to justice.
    He told the Daily Mirror: "It is ludicrous. How can they ignore all the other evidence?
    "I thought the judge might play it safe and uphold the conviction but reduce the sentence. But this result is crazy.
    "There were 47 wounds on Meredith and two knives used. One person couldn't possibly have done that.
    "What happens now? Does that mean the police need to look for more killers?"
    On Monday, Stephanie had said her sister had been "hugely forgotten" in the furore over the appeal.
    Miss Knox and Sollecito had been jailed for 26 years and 25 years respectively for the murder but have now been cleared.
    The American has already started her return trip to her hometown of Seattle, flying back via London.

    Kercher Family: 'We're Back To Square One' - Yahoo!

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