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Thread: Gentle innocent or brutal killer: Seattle student charged with murder in Italy

  1. #166
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McJag View Post
    Ha! At any rate they do not have access to a private plane alone. They are an ordinary family.
    About poor Meredith. I don't know how her family can bear it. Things are so botched, but the hard core evidence points to that one crazed man. The bad part is, it could just as easily been Meredith on trial had she lived.

    Our news always mentions her and her family. Everyone feels badly for them
    Sorry! I've been editing like a PB-fiend & added the bit about how they haven't bought a ticket for her this time.

    There are still unanswered questions about where she was that night. She said (the 2nd time) that she was with her bf, he couldn't remember if she was there, they both switched their mobile phones off in the evening which was (allegedly) unprecedented for her, the laptop that they downloaded the film on & watched wasn't used that evening.... She might not be guilty of murder but she certainly didn't help herself by lying to the police & (what appears to be) making stuff up...
    Free Charmed.

  2. #167
    Elite Member rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McJag View Post
    Ha! At any rate they do not have access to a private plane alone. They are an ordinary family.
    About poor Meredith. I don't know how her family can bear it. Things are so botched, but the hard core evidence points to that one crazed man. The bad part is, it could just as easily been Meredith on trial had she lived.

    Our news always mentions her and her family. Everyone feels badly for them
    Sorry, this just doesn't make sense ...

    Random people being unfairly accused? I don't think so.

  3. #168
    Elite Member southernbelle's Avatar
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    Meredith's family talks about wanting to know what happened, but I think they're failing to understand that convicting an innocent person just for the satisfaction of being able to blame somebody is not the same thing as finding out the truth about what happened or getting justice.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernbelle View Post
    Meredith's family talks about wanting to know what happened, but I think they're failing to understand that convicting an innocent person just for the satisfaction of being able to blame somebody is not the same thing as finding out the truth about what happened or getting justice.
    I don't agree at all.
    Up to tonight when the verdict was overturned, they thought that the killers of their daughter were in jail.
    They now do not really know who the killers of their daughter were, and if the guy convicted acted alone or if he too is about to appeal & be released. They are saying "look at the evidence" because they have been told that two people killed their daughter & the two different knives were used. The police don't have any other suspects...

    Whatever happens to him they still do not know WHY their daughter died. Too much they do know, the HOW she died and what that did to her body before she finally died.

    They do not want an innocent in jail & the guilty free, they want justice and the truth, and that their daughter's death not to be forgotten & their daughter to be remembered.
    Free Charmed.

  5. #170
    Elite Member Mr. Authority's Avatar
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    Eh I don't follow cases and stories like this, but I am curious cause everyone keeps comparing Amanda Knox to Casey Anthony. Are there any parallels between the two or are people just comparing cases cause they involve two white women?

  6. #171
    Elite Member southernbelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Authority View Post
    Eh I don't follow cases and stories like this, but I am curious cause everyone keeps comparing Amanda Knox to Casey Anthony. Are there any parallels between the two or are people just comparing cases cause they involve two white women?
    They both seemed to show a lack of emotion and/or inappropriate emotions in the face of a very serious criminal situation.

  7. #172
    Elite Member LynnieD's Avatar
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    I know very little about this case, but have always had an uneasy feeling about it ALL. None of it seems to make sense. None of it.

    I have zero to back any of my arguments up so I will spare you all, but its just fucked up. At the end of the day, a young woman is dead and the family of that young woman continues to question just what the fuck happened that night---the night their daughter died.

    There just seems to be many questions in my head though...

  8. #173
    Elite Member Mel1973's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernbelle View Post
    I would definitely be very interested in hearing her tell her side of the story in an interview. I am interested in hearing more about the interactions between the girls and the friendship that existed instead of the constant "Amanda was disgusting" and "Meredith didn't like Amanda" commentary that Meredith's friends have put out there.

    I want to hear her account of what her perception of their friendship was. I think that Amanda believed they were friends and that everything was fine, but that Meredith was trash talking Amanda to her (Meredith's) friends and family behind her back, leading them to believe that Amanda was this roommate from hell.

    I also want to hear about her experiences in prison as she was incarcerated for 4 years for a crime that she didn't commit. I would be interested to know what she had to endure. If I remember correctly, I think at one point they told her (untruthfully) that she was HIV positive in order to mess with her head and browbeat her into making a list of all of her sexual partners, which they then used against her.

    I think she could give a fascinating interview that many people would be interested in.
    Yeah, and Amanda Knox has no reason to embellish on their month long "friendship" does she? I wouldn't mind hearing Meredith's perception of that "friendship" but she's dead so her opinion doesn't fucking matter, does it.
    Quote Originally Posted by southernbelle View Post
    It has been determined now that the knife's blade did NOT contain Meredith's DNA. It actually contained particles from rye bread. This in addition to the fact that it was already determined the knife in question could not have created the wounds on Meredith.

    I also don't consider a few incidences of mixed DNA in a bathroom that Meredith and Amanda shared to be reliable evidence. Of course there will be mixed DNA.

    Amanda and Rafaelle's DNA could not be found in Meredith's room or on her body. Guede's could, very clearly. That eliminates the possibility of an elaborate cleanup, because it would have been impossible for them to eliminate every trace of themselves while leaving Guede's DNA.


    This quote is obnoxious and this type of statement is exactly why I have a problem with the Kerchers. It makes them feel better about what happened to trash everyone else's reputation and character so that they can portray Meredith as some sort of saint. They aren't doing their daughter any favors with this type of attitude. From what I understand, she herself was a casual drug user as well and in a sxual relationship... the very things that they demonize Amanda for. Both girls exhibited traits and behaviors that are not uncommon in college students. For them to suggest that Meredith was this perfect angel and that this happened because everyone was just soooo jealous of her is disgusting and embarrassing. I feel like they are living in a fantasy world and in denying the reality of the situation they are actually impeding true justice, not helping to serve it.
    Is that a joke? The victim's family aren't entitled to their opinion? They should just STFU about their lost loved one? Their thoughts on WHY she was killed is disgusting and embarassing? Wow. They live in a fantasy world? Really? Must be a shitty fantasy, huh? Send your daughter off to school, she's murdered, people are convicted, convictions are overturned and they should just shut the fuck up about her and what they thought of her? I don't think they have ever said that she was a perfect angel. They are impeding true justice? What an absolute crock of shit. I bet not one person wants justice more than Meredith's family - no matter what YOU'RE problem with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by southernbelle View Post
    Meredith's family talks about wanting to know what happened, but I think they're failing to understand that convicting an innocent person just for the satisfaction of being able to blame somebody is not the same thing as finding out the truth about what happened or getting justice.
    Again - bullshit. Meredith's family didn't convict Amanda Knox, did they? I think they probably know the difference between an "innocent" person being convicted and the truth. You act like Meredith's family is the cause of Amanda Knox's problems and that is about as unfair as you think the Italian judicial system has been to poor widdle Amanda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Novice View Post
    I don't agree at all.
    Up to tonight when the verdict was overturned, they thought that the killers of their daughter were in jail.
    They now do not really know who the killers of their daughter were, and if the guy convicted acted alone or if he too is about to appeal & be released. They are saying "look at the evidence" because they have been told that two people killed their daughter & the two different knives were used. The police don't have any other suspects...

    Whatever happens to him they still do not know WHY their daughter died. Too much they do know, the HOW she died and what that did to her body before she finally died.

    They do not want an innocent in jail & the guilty free, they want justice and the truth, and that their daughter's death not to be forgotten & their daughter to be remembered.
    Thank you! Talk about putting the victim on trial. The Kercher family is right, Meredith is being forgotten in all this shit. And just because she's dead, what more can be said about her? Her family wants justice and anyone who thinks they wouldn't feel the same is a fucking moron!
    Kill him.
    Kill her.
    Kill It.
    Kill everything... that IS the solution!
    П(_)П
    twitchy molests my signature!

  9. #174
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    And... Just for the record, where the fuck was Amanda Knox when Meredith was being murdered because she has (appeared to) lied twice now, according to the evidence...

    And just to ram the point home that the Kutcher family do NOT want any innocents in jail instead of the murderer.
    Amanda Knox flies home as prosecutor vows to launch appeal

    Meredith Kercher's family express bewilderment and frustration over decision to acquit Knox and Raffaele Sollecito of her murder

    Meredith Kercher's family says they still have no answers regarding the death of the British student. Link to this video Amanda Knox is flying back to her native Seattle as the prosecutor who led the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher indicated he would seek to overturn her acquittal and that of her former Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, in Italy's top appeals court.
    The murdered Briton's family, who will be returning to London on Tuesday after hearing the appeal decision, expressed bewilderment and frustration at the outcome.
    Lyle Kercher, her brother, told a press conference: "While we accept the decision that was handed down yesterday, respect the court, and obviously the Italian justice system, we do find now that we are looking at this again and thinking how a decision that was so certain two years ago has been so emphatically overturned now."
    The Italy-US Foundation, which has championed Knox's cause, said the American was at Leonardo da Vinci airport in Rome boarding a flight to London, where she would catch a connecting flight to the United States. Knox was believed to have been escorted by police through a non-public entrance to the airport.
    Giuliano Mignini, the prosecutor who led the investigation, said he was confident the court of cassation, Italy's highest appeals tribunal, would deliver justice. Lyle Kercher said he understood that Mignini intended to take the case further.
    Though Knox was acquitted of murdering her British flatmate, she was given a heavier sentence for slandering her former employer, a Congolese bar owner. In a statement to police, signed without the assistance of a lawyer, she said Diya "Patrick" Lumumba was the murderer. Lumumba spent a brief period in jail as a result.
    "What was the motive for the slander if she was not involved in the murder?" asked Mignini.
    A fourth person, Rudy Guede, was later found to have been at the scene of the crime. He was tried in separate proceedings and convicted of Kercher's murder. He lost two subsequent appeals.
    Mignini remarked that the court of cassation had accepted the view that Guede did not act alone. The point was echoed by Lyle Kercher.
    "If the two who were released yesterday were not the guilty parties, we are left wondering who are the other person or people and for us it feels very much like back to square one," he told reporters.
    The Italian justice system envisages a trial, appeal and second appeal to the court of cassation. But the second appeal normally only considers points of law or procedure.
    An appeal to Italy's supreme court is open to both sides in a case. But Lyle Kercher noted that Mignini would need authorisation from his superiors to go further.
    The prosecutor has previously argued that the review of DNA evidence ordered by the appeal court – which cleared the way for the acquittal of Knox and Sollecito – could be ruled null and void by the court of cassation since such reviews must be ordered at a defendant's first trial.
    If the Rome court ordered the appeal to be restaged, it would most likely be held in Florence, said Mignini, who left the hearing on Monday night without making any comment on the outcome. He criticised the media's focus on the American student.
    "I have never seen such media pressure. We can't go on like this," he said.
    So far the Kerchers' lawyer has aligned them in court four-square behind the prosecution's case that the victim died resisting a violent, four-way sex game. But the press conference saw the family hit a more sceptical note.
    Meredith Kercher's sister, Stephanie, said: "We don't want the wrong people put away for a crime they didn't commit." The press conference also revealed that the family's chief legal representative, Francesco Maresca, had stopped Sollecito's father from talking to the Kerchers after the verdict.
    Maresca said: "Yesterday, in front of the bench in court, did not seem to me to be the best moment."
    Last edited by Novice; October 4th, 2011 at 08:08 AM.
    Free Charmed.

  10. #175
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    Default Italian Police now on trial?

    I've purposely post this in a new post, as its a change of topic slightly.

    Amanda Knox: police under fire over botched investigation

    Investigation into the murder of British student Meredith Kercher was, according to a lawyer, a 'ship that never changed course'



    The investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher was, in the words of one of Amanda Knox's lawyers, a "ship that never changed course".
    The appellants' counsel maintained, as they had at the trial, that the explanation of what happened in Perugia's Via della Pergola on that winter's night in 2007 was actually perfectly simple.
    A man known to be a petty criminal, Rudy Guede, a drifter from Ivory Coast, broke in, either before or after Kercher returned from a quiet meal with her friends. He took advantage of the situation to try to rape her a not uncommon occurrence, criminologists say and, when she put up a vigorous struggle, he slashed her throat.
    But, by the time it was discovered that Guede had left evidence of his presence all over the bedroom in which the British student bled to death, the investigation had already set off on a quite different route. Giuliano Mignini, one of Perugia's most senior prosecutors, had ordered the arrest of Knox, Sollecito and a third man, Diya "Patrick" Lumumba, the Congolese owner of a bar in the city where Knox worked when she was not studying at Perugia's university for foreigners.
    What is more, he had a dramatically newsworthy theory to explain the murder: it was the outcome of a bizarre sex game involving the three detainees and the victim which she had resisted. This version was partly supported by a statement that Knox made four days after the discovery of the crime following a lengthy overnight interrogation in which, she told the court , "I wasn't just stressed and pressurised; I was manipulated."
    Instead of dropping their theory, however, the investigators simply replaced Lumumba with Guede and pressed ahead full steam. This despite the fact that they were unable to find any forensic evidence directly linking Knox to the scene of the crime.
    Inside Kercher's bedroom, there were none of her fingerprints or footprints and not a trace of her DNA. The same was true of Sollecito or rather, it was, until 46 days after the first inspection of the crime scene when the victim's bra clasp all of a sudden came to light.
    Sollecito's lawyer remarked on Friday that this was a remarkable coincidence: the very night before, a programme had been broadcast on Italian television in which Sollecito's father had highlighted some of the weaknesses in the prosection case, eliciting from the presenter a remark that, if that was correct, "someone is going to have to pay".
    Will that happen now that an appeal court has overturned the original verdict? Monday night's decision was a devastating one for the investigators.
    There were two forms of acquittal open to the judges. They could have freed Knox and Sollecito on the grounds that there was insufficient proof of their guilt an outcome similar to the Scottish law verdict of "not proven". But, instead, they chose to acquit them entirely. In the first place, their decision raises very serious questions about Mignini, who oversaw the investigation and led for the prosecution at the trial. An intensely controversial figure, he was himself facing trial for malpractice at the time Guede's role in the crime was discovered.
    Critics of his handling of the case have long argued that this may have conditioned his refusal to drop the charges against the two young lovers and let go of the sex-game theory. Accusations had been laid against him over his handling of a strand of the so-called "Monster of Florence" serial killing mystery that he had woven from an even more bizarre thesis involving the entanglement of a Satanist coven made up of otherwise respectable people.
    Mignini was tried and convicted, but not suspended from office. He is appealing against his conviction.
    Not the least of the queries posed by Monday night's verdict is how any legal system can allow a man in Mignini's position to continue wielding immense power over the lives of others.
    Most of the other questions concern the Italian police. Steve Moore, an FBI agent who has closely followed the case and became persuaded of Knox and Sollecito's innocence, says the American student's overnight interrogation was an aberration in terms of police practice known in his agency as "tag-teaming" and ideally suited to obtain a predetermined result.
    "If you're trying to determine facts and truth, you want your suspect clear, lucid and awake," he wrote in a study of the case. "If you want to coerce your suspect into saying what you want them to say, you want them disoriented, groggy and confused."
    Less obviously serious, but perhaps more internationally relevant, is what the Amanda Knox case has to say about Italian forensic science methods. The other key piece of evidence in the case was the knife, found in Sollecito's kitchen, which the investigators identified as the murder weapon.
    Not surprisingly, it had traces of the young Italian's DNA and that of his girlfriend. They probably used it to prepare food. But, in a sensational twist to the inquiry, police scientists claimed to have established that a trace of Kercher's DNA was on it too.
    Yet, according to two Rome university professors appointed by the court to review the evidence, the traces were too faint to sustain such a devastating conclusion: "unreliable in as much as [they were] not supported by scientifically validated analytic procedures", they said in their damning report.
    Free Charmed.

  11. #176
    Elite Member Mel1973's Avatar
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    Though Knox was acquitted of murdering her British flatmate, she was given a heavier sentence for slandering her former employer, a Congolese bar owner. In a statement to police, signed without the assistance of a lawyer, she said Diya "Patrick" Lumumba was the murderer. Lumumba spent a brief period in jail as a result.
    "What was the motive for the slander if she was not involved in the murder?" asked Mignini.


    but people in this thread want to say it's the Kercher's who are impeding the justice system??? wake the fuck up.
    Kill him.
    Kill her.
    Kill It.
    Kill everything... that IS the solution!
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  12. #177
    Elite Member southernbelle's Avatar
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    They are certainly entitled to their opinion, but I don't think that it was appropriate for them to continue to assert that Amanda had done this, and then to suggest that it was because Meredith was "all that they weren't", referring to Meredith's friends. I did not like the way that they basically assert that Meredith was better than everyone else. I just feel like they wanted Amanda held responsible for this, and they weren't open to considering any other possibilities, even when the evidence pointed at someone else. I don't know why that is. Maybe they have information we don't have. Who knows. But I found their fixation on pinning the whole thing on Amanda misguided.

    And while I certainly understand that they want their daughter remembered, Amanda and Raffaele's trial is not the appropriate venue for tributes to Meredith and I don't see why they would expect Meredith's accomplishments, personality, and positive qualities to be a focus of the trial or be angry and upset when that isn't the case. It's about the evidence, plain and simple, and Meredith's shining personality is not evidence. I think the trial was already too sensationalized from the beginning, and as I remember, originally there was a VERY heavy emphasis placed on Meredith and what a great person she was, which was part of the reason that Amanda was immediately vilified. I think from the beginning, it was very much portrayed as a Meredith vs. Amanda situation, placing them on polar ends with Meredith as the "good" one and Amanda as the "bad" one. I was pleased when they did start to focus more on the actual evidence and less on the characterizations that were made early on. There will be plenty of opportunities to do a beautiful tribute to Meredith and to acknowledge the person that she was. But, in a trial that needs to be based on facts, not sensationalism, I don't think there's really a place for that. I think justice can really get derailed when people allow their emotions and affinity for the victim to cloud their understanding of the facts, and when they are made to feel that they're being disloyal to the victim if they don't hold the defendant responsible, even when the evidence doesn't clearly support that individual's guilt.

    I also don't understand why Meredith's family feels that they have no idea what happened to their daughter. I think it's pretty clear what happened and why, and in fact it was established when Guede was convicted. Guede had done this before. It was not the first time he had broken into someone's home to steal things and used the toilet without flushing. This was his M.O. He broke into the apartment and Meredith probably interrupted him in the middle of a robbery. I don't think it was motivated by jealousy or had anything to do with Meredith on a personal level. He was simply a heartless criminal who had no problem killing someone that interfered with his robbery. Having that information, I don't see how her parents can still draw the conclusion that because Amanda and Raffaele were set free, there is suddenly complete confusion about what happened and there are no answers. I think it's MORE clear what happened when you eliminate them from the equation. Trying to explain how they could have been involved in this and magically removed all of their DNA from the scene is much more confusing to me than accepting that Guede did this and acted alone.

    As for her implication of Lumumba, I agree that is bizarre and she should be held liable for that, but I don't think it points to her involvement. I think that she accused him under intense police pressure and persuasion, during an interrogation conducted in a language which she was not fluent in at the time. From what I read, it was her understanding that she was describing a hypothetical scenario such as, "What if he was involved?" As to why she didn't immediately recant or set the record straight, who knows. Maybe she was just so terrified that she just went along with it. It was wrong and she should definitely be held accountable, but I think as a scared college student being accused of murder in a foreign country, it's hard to say what you would do out of desperation, panic, or just utter confusion/translation problems. I don't think it means that she's guilty of murder, though.
    Last edited by southernbelle; October 4th, 2011 at 09:27 AM.

  13. #178
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    sb has a point. i do remember hearing about how some of the arguments used by meredith's family and friends to imply that amanda was a bad seed and therefore capable of murder were about how she was messy, had sex and used drugs... and that's supposed to make her a murderer, too?

    and yeah, the focus on the trial was to find out whether or not these two were guilty, not to pay tribute to the victim. how was she 'forgotten' if the only reason this happened was to find out who killed her? but the focus has to be on the accused and on determining their fate, that's the whole point of a trial.
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  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    she was messy, had sex and used drugs... and that's supposed to make her a murderer, too?
    if that's all it takes, it's going to get REALLY quiet around here...
    can't post pics because my computer's broken and i'm stupid

  15. #180
    Elite Member Mel1973's Avatar
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    maybe amanda was accused because she's a fucking liar? maybe once you lie so many times, it starts to appear as if you have something to hide. when you implicate innocent people, what does that say about you? what meredith's family is doing/has done is what comes natural. the kercher family isn't the party responsible for amanda being in prison and they aren't responsible for what the cops did. actually, all the shit that I've seen posted here seems to be now turning the family into victims. losing their daughter/sister wasn't enough, now they can be villified for defending her life/personality/character?
    Kill him.
    Kill her.
    Kill It.
    Kill everything... that IS the solution!
    П(_)П
    twitchy molests my signature!

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