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Thread: FIFTY Dead, 53 Injured by Shooter at Orlando Gay Bar

  1. #106
    Elite Member MmeVertigina's Avatar
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    I just came across this article. What I found to be particularly interesting is where it details the steps necessary to getting gun control bills passed, and the challenge of having neighboring states that don't agree with these policies if adopted.

    California panels approve raft of gun control bills in wake of Orlando massacre

    By Jessica Calefati, jcalefati@bayareanewsgroup.comPOSTED: 06/14/2016 09:59:55 AM PDT | UPDATED: 25 MIN. AGO




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    SACRAMENTO -- Two days after the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history, two key legislative committees on Tuesday approved a sweeping package of gun control legislation following the year's most fiery hearings.




    During the state Assembly Public Safety Committee, Democrats sparred with a National Rifle Association lobbyist who testified against several of the bills, calling him "crazy" and "vicious" for protecting the killers who "terrorize our streets." And when the lobbyist said the legislation wouldn't help save lives, one lawmaker suggested washing his mouth with soap.Three variations of the AR-15 assault rifle are displayed at the California Department of Justice in Sacramento in 2012. (Rich Pedroncelli/Associated Press Archives)






    "The reason they were murdered was because of your organization," said another lawmaker, Assemblyman Evan Low, an openly gay Silicon Valley Democrat who was speaking about the 49 people slaughtered early Sunday at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida. "It's difficult for me to sit here and look you in the eye and respect you."





    California lawmakers had introduced the gun control package following last December's terrorist killings in San Bernardino and were expected to act on them this week even before Sunday's massacre. So the timing of the votes has put the Golden State in a national spotlight because it's widely assumed the Republican Congress will not seriously consider any gun bills this year.
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    On Tuesday, both of the Legislature's public safety panels met and approved 11 gun control bills after several hours of intense, passionate debate about whether measures to ban possession of high-capacity ammunition magazines and further restrict the sale of assault-style weapons would make Californians any safer.



    Next, the bills will be considered by the Assembly's appropriations committee. After that, the Senate bills would need to win approval on the Assembly floor before being sent to Gov. Jerry Brown for consideration. Legislative leaders say lawmakers need to act before the end of the month, when Lt. Gov. Gavin Newsom must decide whether to pull a control initiative on November's ballot.



    The NRA has relentlessly defended civilians' right to own weapons like the Sig Saur MCX assault rifle that terrorist Omar Mateen used Sunday to kill the nightclub patrons and wound 53others.



    Proponents of the six measures the Assembly committee approved -- including Senate Bill 1446, which would outlaw possession of ammunition magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, and SB 880, which would close a loophole in California's existing assault weapons ban by prohibiting long guns with "bullet buttons" that make it easy to swap high-capacity magazines -- say they're needed to stop the next mass shooting here from being so deadly.Amanda Wilcox's daughter died after being shot by a mentally ill man with a high-capacity magazine. And Wilcox, now a spokeswoman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, testified that it was only when the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooter in 2012 stopped to reload that a number of first-graders were able to run to safety during that attack.
    "When a person has to exchange magazines, people have a chance to escape," said Wilcox, who lives near Sacramento. If SB 1446 becomes law, "the lethality of these mass shootings will be decreased and the lives will be saved."
    But representatives of the NRA and other gun-rights groups testified at the hearing that the slate of bills will do nothing to improve Californians' safety and will instead create cumbersome new rules for law-abiding gun owners that unfairly limit their Second Amendment rights.
    "This legislation will not deter violent crime," NRA lobbyist Dan Reid said, speaking about Senate Bill 1235, which would regulate the sale of ammunition. He didn't mention Sunday's massacre in any of his testimony before the Assembly committee.
    Asked by Low whether gun owners' rights to use assault-style rifles for hunting or target shooting outweighs the danger these weapons pose to society, the executive director of Gun Owners of California insisted that long guns have helped law-abiding citizens defend themselves against attackers "hundreds of thousands of times."
    "We should be talking about how many lives (these weapons) have saved," said Sam Paredes.
    Republican lawmakers who sit on the Assembly committee said they share the same goals as Democrats who want to decrease gun violence and prevent the next mass shooting. But they said they couldn't support any of the gun bills the committee considered because they disagree on the approach.
    Assemblyman Tom Lackey, R-Palmdale, said he believes Democrats are too focused on the instruments of gun violence and not focused enough on the motivations of the "wicked people" who commit the crimes.
    "This term gun violence bothers me," he said. "Guns aren't the source of the violence."
    Sen. Isadore Hall, D-Compton, responded to Lackey's comments by insisting that an intense focus on the types of weapons the government allows on its streets is the most important thing to consider when so many people are dying in mass shootings fueled by guns that can fire round after round in a matter of seconds.
    "I'm not ashamed to stand up for those who have been victimized," Hall said. "I'm not ashamed to stand up for parents who will never be able to say 'I love you' to their children again."
    The Assembly committee also approved SB 894, authored by Sen. Hannah Beth Jackson, D-Santa Barbara, which would make it a crime not to report a lost or stolen firearm, and SB 1407, authored by Senate President Pro Tem Kevin de León, D-Los Angeles, which requires serial numbers to be placed on gun parts that can be assembled at home.
    The Senate Public Safety Committee approved five additional bills, including proposals to expand the group of people who may request a gun violence restraining order and limit the number of long guns prospective buyers may purchase in a 30-day period.
    Speaking at the Assembly hearing, Assemblyman Bill Quirk, D-Hayward, acknowledged how tough it is to dramatically improve public safety for Californians when neighboring states such as Nevada and Arizona don't force firearms owners to comply with the same rules. But, he said, the hurdle isn't an excuse not to try.
    "California can't do this alone, but we can at least start," Quirk said.
    Progressive Democratic lawmakers in other states will surely look to California's work on gun control as a guide, but the impact will be limited for two reasons, said Jack Pitney, a political science professor at Claremont McKenna College.
    "Republicans control most state legislatures this year, and most state legislatures are already out of session," Pitney said. "In many states lawmakers won't meet again until January, after an election has taken place and the impact of Orlando has faded."
    Contact Jessica Calefati at 916-441-2101. Follow her at Twitter.com/Calefati.

    A FLURRY OF GUN CONTROL BILLS
    Here are some of the measures that cleared the Assembly and Senate public safety committees on Tuesday:





    Senate Bill 1446, authored by Sen. Loni Hancock, D-Berkeley, restricts possession of ammunition magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.
    Assembly Bill 1674, authored by Assemblyman Miguel Santiago, D-Los Angeles, limit the number of long guns Californians can purchase to one a month -- a limit that now applies to handguns.
    SB 1235, authored by Senate President Pro Tem Kevin de León, D-Los Angeles, regulates the sale of ammunition.
    SB 880, authored by Sen. Isadore Hall, D-South Bay, and Assembly Bill 1664, authored by Assemblyman Marc Levine, D-Marin County, effectively prohibits "bullet buttons" that make it easy to detach magazines.




    SB 869, authored by Sen. Jerry Hill, D-San Mateo, requires law enforcement officials who keep handguns in their vehicles to keep them in a locked box or the trunk to prevent thefts.






    SB 894, authored by Sen. Hannah-Beth Jackson, D-Santa Barbara, and AB 1695, authored by Assemblyman Rob Bonta, D-Oakland, requires the reporting of a lost or stolen gun within a few days.
    SB 1407, authored by de León, and AB 1673, authored by Assemblyman Mike Gipson, D-Carson, aim to eliminate the proliferation of so-called "ghost guns," which are manufactured at home and don't carry serial numbers.
    AB 2607, authored by Assemblyman Phil Ting, D-San Francisco, would expand the group of people who may request a gun violence restraining order.


  2. #107
    Elite Member Sarzy's Avatar
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    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/up...ent-world.html

    Compare These Gun Death Rates : The US Is In A different World.

    The mass shooting in Orlando on Sunday was appalling in scale: 49 killed in a single attack. But it’s not unusual for dozens of Americans to be killed by guns in a single day.

    Gun homicides are a common cause of death in the United States, killing about as many people as car crashes (not counting van, truck, motorcycle or bus accidents). Some cases command our attention more than others, of course. Counting mass shootings that make headlines and the thousands of Americans murdered one or a few at a time, gunshot homicides totaled 8,124 in 2014, according to the F.B.I.

    This level of violence makes the United States an extreme outlier when measured against the experience of other advanced countries.

    Around the world, those countries have substantially lower rates of deaths from gun homicide. In Germany, being murdered with a gun is as uncommon as being killed by a falling object in the United States. About two people out of every million are killed in a gun homicide. Gun homicides are just as rare in several other European countries, including the Netherlands and Austria. In the United States, two per million is roughly the death rate for hypothermia or plane crashes.

    In Poland and England, only about one out of every million people die in gun homicides each year — about as often as an American dies in an agricultural accident or falling from a ladder. In Japan, where gun homicides are even rarer, the likelihood of dying this way is about the same as an American’s chance of being killed by lightning — roughly one in 10 million.

    In the United States, the death rate from gun homicides is about 31 per million people — the equivalent of 27 people shot dead every day of the year. The homicides include losses from*mass shootings, like Sunday’s Orlando attack, or the San Bernardino, Calif., shooting last December. And of course, they also include the country’s vastly more common single-victim killings.

    To give you a sense of how unusual America’s gun violence problem is, consider the daily death toll compared with other Western democracies. The chart below imagines that the populations of those countries were the same as the population of the United States.

    International comparisons help highlight how exceptional the United States is: In a nation where the right to bear arms is cherished by much of the population, gun homicides are a significant public health concern. For men 15 to 29, they are the third-leading cause of death, after accidents and suicides. In other high-income countries, gun homicides are unusual events. Last year’s Paris attackskilled 130 people, which is nearly as many as die from gun homicides in all of France in a typical year. But even if France had a mass shooting as deadly as the Paris attacks every month, its annual rate of gun homicide death would be lower than that in the United States.

    The accompanying table shows the mortality rates for gun homicides in a variety of countries, along with a correspondingly likely cause of death in the United States.

    Our gun homicide numbers come from theSmall Arms Survey, a Swiss nonprofit affiliated with the Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies, and represent the average gun homicide death rates in those countries between 2007 and 2012. The United States death rates come from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention*over those same years. There are more recent statistics on American gun deaths, like the F.B.I. number at the top of this article, but we chose these years to provide fair comparisons. We focused on the rates of gun homicides; the overall rate of gun deaths is substantially higher, because suicides make up a majority of gun deaths in the United States and are also higher than in other developed countries.

    The table is not meant to make light of rare causes of death. Instead, we show them as a way to help think meaningfully about the differences among gun death rates.

    By TURNER COWLES, ROBIN STEIN and MANJULA VARGHESE*2:3513 Deadliest Shootings in America

    Video*The mass shooting in Orlando, Fla., was the worst in U.S. history. Every year, hundreds die in similar episodes. These are some of the deadliest.

    The rate of gun violence in the United States is not the highest in the world. In parts of Central America, Africa and the Middle East, the gun death rates are even higher — close to those from heart attacks and lung cancer in the United States. In neighboring Mexico, where a drug war rages, 122 people per million die in a gun homicide, a rate slightly higher than Americans’ death rate from pancreatic cancer. But the countries with those levels of gun violence are not like the United States in many other ways, including G.D.P., life expectancy and education. Among developed democracies, the United States is an outlier.

    Editor’s note: A version of this article was first published in December 2015 and was updated after the Orlando shootings.

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    Elite Member Brookie's Avatar
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    Found out this morning that my boss lost a friend there. He's pretty gutted.
    Life is short. Break the Rules. Forgive Quickly. Kiss Slowly. Love Truly.
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    So sorry for your boss, Brookie.

    Due to this event, I have decided I need to pull away from social media. I really can't handle the amount of hateful, vindictive, vicious ignorant people on their. Twitter is especially vile. I am not big on Twitter, but many of those people are the craziest fuckers I have ever seen.

    Facebook makes me dislike some of my friends...so I am going to totally limit myself on there.

    Side note, I have a friend who travels all across Europe for work, probably 3 weeks a month. I was telling him how much I missed Europe, and I hadn't been since 2002. He was telling me it's a whole different climate in Europe now, compared to 10 years ago. He said there are beggars and panhandlers on every street corner. So I can imagine if you live there.

    I saw this video yesterday. Thought there were some pretty compelling points. I don't know what the answer is to the situation in the Middle East, but I don't think bombs and troops are going to solve it anymore. We have to find other ways.

    https://www.facebook.com/ajplusengli...9/?pnref=story
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    Elite Member Brookie's Avatar
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    I've defriended some people on FB over this. The "don't let anyone take your guns away because of this" crowd. Someone posted yesterday about "did you ever notice they want to take guns away from people who didn't do anything?" - well, fuck you, and you're outta here.

    I'm buying my boss flowers at lunch.
    Life is short. Break the Rules. Forgive Quickly. Kiss Slowly. Love Truly.
    Laugh Uncontrollably. And never regret ANYTHING that makes you smile.

    - Mark Twain

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    So sad Brookie.
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    Perhaps it's been mentioned, but Congress passed a law prohibiting the CDC from even studying gun violence. Because NRA/fear it might lead to a call for gun restrictions.

    The death rate from auto crashes was studied as a public health crisis some time ago and we were able to bring that rate way down with sensible regulation of and improvements on vehicles. Obama mentioned this in his speech a couple of weeks ago when he touched on the fact that no-fly listees aren't blocked from buying guns. Approaching gun violence in a similar, data-driven way could actually lead to something positive. But no.....

    The sponsor of that bill blocking the CDC from any analysis of gun violence actually regrets its passage. Well, now's the time for all the fuckers in Congress to do something about it......I'll hold my breath, not.
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    I left Facebook last December. I knew it was time to leave when it was making me hate people more than I love people. I'm 6 months out and it was the best decision ever.

    I actually miss the days when I didn't know if my friends were fans of Glenn Beck.

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    Not sure if this has been posted, but apparently the shooter was interviewed in an documentary about the BP spill cleanup. He appeared to have been a security guard back then, too.


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    Lt. Gov. Cox speaks at vigil for Orlando: 'My heart has changed'

    By KSL.com | Posted Jun 14th, 2016 @ 7:01pm






    Utah Lt. Governor Spencer Cox speaks about Orlando shooting

    SALT LAKE CITY — Utah Lt. Governor Spencer Cox addressed a vigil held Monday night to honor the victims and survivors of the mass shooting in Orlando. Here is a transcript of his remarks:
    ---
    Ladies and Gentlemen,
    Thank you for being here tonight on this very solemn and somber occasion. I begin with an admission and an apology. First, I recognize fully that I am a balding, youngish, middle-aged straight, white, male, Republican, politician... with all of the expectations and privileges that come with those labels. I am probably not who you expected to hear from today.
    I’m here because, yesterday morning, 49 Americans were brutally murdered. And it made me sad. And it made me angry. And it made me confused. I’m here because those 49 people were gay. I’m here because it shouldn’t matter. But I’m here because it does. I am not here to tell you that I know exactly what you are going through. I am not here to tell you that I feel your pain. I don’t pretend to know the depths of what you are feeling right now. But I do know what it feels like to be scared. And I do know what it feels like to be sad. And I do know what it feels like to be rejected. And, more importantly, I know what it feels like to be loved.
    I grew up in a small town and went to a small rural high school. There were some kids in my class that were different. Sometimes I wasn’t kind to them. I didn’t know it at the time, but I know now that they were gay. I will forever regret not treating them with the kindness, dignity and respect — the love — that they deserved. For that, I sincerely and humbly apologize.
    Over the intervening years, my heart has changed. It has changed because of you. It has changed because I have gotten to know many of you. You have been patient with me. You helped me learn the right letters of the alphabet in the right order even though you keep adding new ones. You have been kind to me. Jim Dabakis even told me I dressed nice once, even though I know he was lying. You have treated me with the kindness, dignity, and respect — the love — that I very often did NOT deserve. And it has made me love you.
    But now we are here. We are here because 49 beautiful, amazing people are gone. These are not just statistics. These were individuals. These are human beings. They each have a story. They each had dreams, goals, talents, friends, family. They are you and they are me. And one night they went out to relax, to laugh, to connect, to forget, to remember. And in a few minutes of chaos and terror, they were gone.
    I believe that we can all agree we have come a long way as a society when it comes to our acceptance and understanding of the LGBTQ community (did I get that right?). However, there has been something about this tragedy that has very much troubled me. I believe that there is a question, two questions actually, that each of us needs to ask ourselves in our heart of hearts. And I am speaking now to the straight community. How did you feel when you heard that 49 people had been gunned down by a self-proclaimed terrorist? That’s the easy question. Here is the hard one: Did that feeling change when you found out the shooting was at a gay bar at 2 a.m. in the morning? If that feeling changed, then we are doing something wrong.
    So now we find ourselves at a crossroads. A crossroads of hate and terror. How do we respond? How do you respond? Do we lash out with anger, hate and mistrust. Or do we, as Lincoln begged, appeal to the “better angels of our nature?”
    Usually when tragedy occurs, we see our nation come together. I was saddened, yesterday to see far too many retreating to their over-worn policy corners and demagoguery. Let me be clear, there are no simple policy answers to this tragedy. Beware of anyone who tells you that they have the easy solution. It doesn’t exist. And I can assure you this — that calling people idiots, communists, fascists or bigots on Facebook is not going to change any hearts or minds. Today we need fewer Republicans and fewer Democrats. Today we need more Americans.
    But just because an easy solution doesn’t exist, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. The greatest generations in the history of the world were never innately great. They became great because of how they responded in the face of evil. Their humanity is measured by their response to hate and terror.
    I truly believe that this is the defining issue of our generation. Can we be brave? Can we be strong? Can we be kind and, perhaps, even happy, in the face of atrocious acts of hate and terrorism? Do we find a way to unite? Or do these atrocities further corrode and divide our torn nation? Can we, the citizens of the great state of Utah, lead the nation with love in the face of adversity? Can WE become a greatest generation?
    I promise we can. But I also promise it will never happen if we leave it to the politicians. Ultimately, there is only one way for us to come together. It must happen at a personal level. We must learn to truly love one another.
    The Prophet Muhammad is reported to have said: “You will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another.”
    Jesus said, “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you.”
    Now, you know a little something about hate. And you know a little something about persecution. But you also know something about loving, blessing and doing good. What our country needs more than ever is less politics and more kindness. If nothing else, as we can see here tonight, this tragedy has the potential to bring us closer than ever before.
    And so may we leave today, with a resolve to be a little kinder. May we try to listen more and talk less. May we forgive someone that has wronged us. And perhaps, most importantly, try to love someone that is different than us. For my straight friends, might I suggest starting with someone who is gay.
    I leave you with the words of Lyndon B. Johnson. They were spoken at another very sad time in our history, the death of President John F. Kennedy. He said this:
    “Our enemies have always made the same mistake. In my lifetime — in depression and in war — they have awaited our defeat. Each time, from the secret places of the American heart, came forth the faith they could not see or that they could not even imagine. It brought us victory. And it will again. For this is what America is all about.”
    On behalf of the 3 million people of the state of Utah, We Are Orlando. We love you. And I love you.
    ---
    Remarks delivered Monday, June 13, 2016, on the grounds of the Salt Lake City and County Building.
    https://www.ksl.com/?sid=40209267&ut...m_content=link

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    Quote Originally Posted by louiswinthorpe111 View Post
    Facebook makes me dislike some of my friends...so I am going to totally limit myself on there.
    This ... my news feed is full of right-wing, gun toting, 'Christians' who are the worst bigots on earth. They'll post sadness as to what happened in Orlando and turn around and post memes about how gays are an abomination to god, among other garbage. I swear if I see one more picture of a grandchild, I may travel home and commit murder. They are insufferable.
    louiswinthorpe111 likes this.

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    Elite Member *Kat*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brookie View Post
    I've defriended some people on FB over this. The "don't let anyone take your guns away because of this" crowd. Someone posted yesterday about "did you ever notice they want to take guns away from people who didn't do anything?" - well, fuck you, and you're outta here.

    I'm buying my boss flowers at lunch.
    Because it's common sense that you wait until somebody does something bad and then take it away?? I'm sure the victims feel vindicated from their graves with this approach. "Serves him right for killing me". Also, all these guys claiming to be the good guys with guns, how the fuck do we know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are?
    Kittylady and Serendipity like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yanna View Post
    And ISIS has called for more killings during ramadan so yes, these killings are sanctioned and sanctified.
    There are so many Islamic scholars who have spoken out against ISIS. It seems ISIS are the only ones (among Muslims) who consider themselves to be Muslim. Apparently proclaiming yourself to be "Muslim" and "acting in accordance with Islam" is enough for you to generalize their behaviour across 2 billion people?

    Furthermore, ISIS has called for random people to arm themselves and attack. They actually don't know who is acting "for" them. At this point, you could probably take a shit in a paper bag, stick it on someone's doorstep and set it alight using an ISIS flag and ISIS would claim credit for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by yanna View Post
    If you want to be a Muslim be as Muslim as you want, knock yourself out, as long as you don't bother anyone else. But not this.
    There are over 80 different sects of Islam. They all follow the Quran, but with varying different interpretations on certain issues. To further complicate issues, there are also hundreds of thousands of ahadith (supplementary narrations supposedly being passed down from the time of Muhammad). Many of these ahadith contradict each other, and the Quran. Depending on which sect you belong to determines which of these ahadith (if any) you accept and which you reject. Acceptance or rejection of certain ahadith can drastically alter your perception of the religion you follow, because many ahadith contain 'explanations' of this verse or that verse, as well as (alleged) historical reasoning behind the revelation of many Quran verses (ayahs).

    Add to that, there are also tafsir, which are explanations of the meaning of the Quran written by scholars. This is where men who have studied Islam extensively have written what they think each verse of the Quran means. Sometimes they use ahadith to support their statement, sometimes not. Each of the tafsir authors is held in varying levels of esteem, and whether you accept their interpretation or not is up to you, and also whether or not the tafsir author was the same sect as you. For example, you wouldn't see a Sunni accepting a Shia-authored tafsir, and vice versa.

    Lastly, there are different schools of fiqh (jurisprudence) where scholars issue opinions on various issues. Could be anything from child custody, to wearing jeans, the correct way to pray, whether you can do <x> in ramadan etc. Scholars issue fatwa's (religious rulings) about these topics. AGAIN, it depends on whether you, as a Muslim, accept this scholar AND their ruling. If you don't, they mean nothing to you.

    Sorry for the long explanation there, but I thought it was necessary, because you, like a LOT of people, seem to think Muslims are one big cohesive group who all believe the exact same thing, but that is NOT the case. Mass generalizations of this sort are grossly misinformed.

    Quote Originally Posted by yanna View Post
    This is insane and you may give me a million other reasons, that they are poor, they are marginalised, the works, you have other groups who are just as poor and as marginalised and they don't blow themselves up. This religion is just toxic. I don't know what that makes me, maybe racist? I don't know. I am sure they are a minority within the muslim but they are a very deadly minority.
    It's a matter of culture, not religion. Unless you can point me to anywhere in the Quran/ahadith or tafsirs where it says it's fine to blow yourself up? I suppose it's much easier to blame an entire religion as an easy 'out' though instead of examining why certain groups are they way there though, that is much more difficult to fix.

    What you're saying is like me saying things like:
    "The Westboro Baptist Church are the true "Good Christians" therefore Christianity is toxic."

    "America was built on the backs of slaves by their white Christian slave owners. Since slavery is immoral, and Christianity endorses slavery, then Christianity is toxic and must be wiped out."

    "Catholic Church priests molest and rape children. Therefore Christians are toxic."

    "Christians are evil because they bomb abortion clinics."

    "Jews are evil because Israel is occupying another country and stealing their land while killing and oppressing their citizens. Americans are also evil because they fund it."

    etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by yanna View Post
    If the Left continues to just infantilise them and justify them at every turn comparing their murders with "white" murders what are we really accomplishing? If we ignore women's rights and gay rights and rampant antisemitism because they conflict with our basic desire of not inciting more racism against immigrants and muslims, what are we accomplishing?
    .
    If the revelations that have come out in the press are true, that the shooter was actually gay, was a regular at Pulse, and had a Grindr profile which he used, what do you think now? Do you think your attack on the entire religion of Isam is a valid one?

    My conjecture:

    I have studied Islam for quite a few years, and IF what is reported (that the shooter was gay), my preliminary, non-expert (in psychology) opinion would be this:

    1. He grew up with a father who was religiously overbearing, always talking about the "evils" of homosexuality (which has been publicised in the press).
    2. He himself is gay.
    3. Therefore he is a self-hating gay.

    I don't know what sect of Islam he was, but I can say there are commonalities between most of the sects:
    (a) That homosexuality is frowned apon (like most religions).
    (b) That the only SURE 100% way into heaven (Jannah) is to die as a martyr. If you have 'sins' in Islam, a lot of sects believe you'll have to pay for those sins (in a purgatory-like manner, or even a stint in Jahannaham - hell), or even you may not get to heaven at all.

    As to what constitues a 'martyr', again, that is up to the specifics of exactly what his 'group' of Muslims believed or not, and we can't really say. Going to guess by his actions, it's a very broad definition though, so maybe a 'dying during a Jihad = heaven.'

    4. Even though he's being painted now as 'not very religious' I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would agree that childhood indoctrination doesn't spin in the back in your mind, especially when you are still exposed to it (his father) whether you choose to follow it or not.

    6. "Something" happened (dunno what? Maybe we'll find out or maybe we won't) to bring this to a head.

    7. So you've got a closeted-gay man who was raised with Islamic indoctrination. According to his belief, he's NOT getting into heaven simply because he's gay. What's the solution? Either a lifetime of penance and no more gay attraction? Or a 'quick fix' of getting into heaven by dying as a martyr? But you can't just claim you're fighting a Jihad, or kill some randos, you've gotta have a cause.

    8. So he (apparently) called 911 and claimed he was executing a Jihad in behalf of ISIS and starts killing those who are like him (gay), knowing all the while that he'd be shot dead by police. So he literally killed himself, and his problem (gays), and ensured that he'd die as a 'martyr' by executing Jihad in behalf of ISIS.

    If my conjecture is correct, that would make him a martyr in his eyes, granting him 100% chance of getting into heaven. I guess he showed Allah he was willing to kill himself twice over (literally and figuratively).

    However, that is only my conjecture. I will change my mind if and when more facts become available. Sorry if I have offended anyone.

    ~~~

    LASTLY, I just want to make one more thing clear. ALL OF YOU who jump on the "Islam is toxic!" bandwagon are playing right into ISIS's hands. Your mass generalizations HELP them immensely.

    Their aim is recruitment, obviously. The best way to accomplish that is to alienate Muslims from their actual homes (eg. in the West). How do you do that? Well you have to turn the populus against Muslims. Then Muslims will feel unwelcome and become disillusioned, and where will they go? To ISIS hopefully! This is why ISIS have called for 'lone wolf' attacks and keep talking about 'sleeper cells' they supposedly have who are ready to strike. It''s to help along the "We hate Muslims" type thinking of non-Muslims.

    When you call for discrimination against Islam or Muslims (as a whole) you're only serving to alienate the Muslims who are just regular people. Who don't want to kill you, enslave you, look down upon you etc.. and furthering ISIS's goals.

    This isn't to say that we should tolerate extremists or terrorists, but that mass generalizations against 2 billion people are at best unhelpful, and at worst dangerous.


    ~~~

    Sorry this post is so huge (I didn't mean it to be when I started writing!) but if you're actually interested, I can show you HEAPS of Islamic scholars who have/are denounced ISIS as not Muslims. Furthermore, I can show you copious examples of exactly WHY they consider them to not be Muslims.

    You gotta ask yourself. If the Saudis - who are known to have the most extreme form of Islam (Wahabbi'ism) are anti-ISIS, then exactly what Muslims are "for" them? A look at the majority of people who are successfully recruited by them will show you the answer there.

    Thank you, and a big thank you to anyone who managed to read through all of this!
    *Kat*, BBDSP, czb and 8 others like this.

  14. #119
    Elite Member dksnj's Avatar
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    This hits so close to home for me. My son visited Orlando last summer and spent many a nights at that club doing performances. He know a lot of the staff as well as the club goers. Four of his friends were shot...thankfully they all survived. One woke up from a coma yesterday. What he told my son sent shivers down my spine....unimaginable horror. He is still waiting to hear from one of his friends who worked there. This is all so crazy and scary.
    Vera Donovan: (Dolores Claiborne) : Sometimes you have to be a high-riding bitch to survive. Sometimes being a bitch is all a woman has to hold onto.

  15. #120
    Elite Member louiswinthorpe111's Avatar
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    Thank you Janus! I appreciate your post and really agree with you in regard to the anti Muslim rhetoric.
    Janus and garysgirl1999 like this.
    RELIGION: Treat it like it's your genitalia. Don't show it off in public, and don't shove it down your children's throats.

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