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Thread: Explosions at Boston Marathon

  1. #601
    Elite Member DeChayz's Avatar
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    From msn:
    The hospitalized Boston Marathon bombing suspect charged Monday with using a weapon of mass destruction has told investigators that he and his brother were motivated by religion but were not in contact with overseas terrorists or groups, officials said.
    Tsarnaev, who has injuries to his tongue preventing him from speaking properly, also indicated that he and his brother conceived the bombing attack on their own, and were motivated by religious fervor.
    Officials: Hospitalized bombing suspect says he and brother acted alone, motivated by religion - U.S. News
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    I keep wondering what the brothers' ultimate plan was after the bombings. I'm not sure what Tamerlan was up to, but the younger brother went back to his campus and partied and worked out. Did they ever plan to take responsibility for the bombings, even if anonymously? Did they hope to do more bombings?

    They didn't show any signs of flight until their photos were published, but perhaps they were planning on going back to their old routines for a bit before disappearing so as not to draw attention to themselves? Or did they even have a plan? I suppose I want to understand because I hope that understanding will somehow make me feel better.

    As for whether it was an act of terrorism or not, it was heinous and horrible either way. Today my daughter was showing me the blog of a mother and daughter who were injured--they are friends of one of my daughter's friends. The daughter has shrapnel in her head and both the mother's legs were amputated. Having one of the brothers dead and the other charged with the bombings doesn't bring anyone back or make anyone whole. I am fucking sick of religious nutters. If I thought my God or religion was telling me to hurt other people, I'd tell God to fuck off. And I say this as someone who considers herself a Christian. God gave me the ability to know right from wrong, so I would just say fuck you God.

    On an unrelated note, I saw an article on the Globe's website to the effect that police are taking another look into that triple murder involving one of Tamerlan's friends.
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    Religious fervour isn't limited to Islam. At my suburban Catholic school every morning we would sing the school song with the chorus "For God we live for God we'll die" - 5 times a week. If that isn't indoctrination I don't know what is.
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    Nevertheless, I don't remember any Methodist mobs burning flags or blowing up buildings because people don't recognise Charles Wesley as the true prophet of God.
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    God, terrorism doesn't require that you be part of, or follow, an organized group. It's about ideology. McVeigh was a terrorist and the Feds gave him the needle, doesn't always have to be about Islam...so stop with the straw man arguments. If a mass shooting involves some political ideology (not mental illness) it's terrorism too. Really not that complex.
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    So one man shooting a President is an ideologue but one man bombing a shopping mall is a terrorist? How do we define this?
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    ter·ror·ism(tr-rzm)n.The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

    Almost by any measure, what the Tsarnaev's did was terrorism. However, they didn't leave some kind of communique stating why the bombing was done. But neither did McVeigh. As in this case, the motivation for the terrorist act was only conveyed after the guilty party was caught. Maybe they were going to do that later on, though, since they had made numerous other bombs.

    And according to CNN, he has already been Mirandized:

    Federal agents at first questioned Tsarnaev without reading him his Miranda rights, under an exception to the rule invoked when authorities believe there is an imminent public safety threat, a Justice Department official said over the weekend. But by the time of the hospital room proceeding, government sources said he had been read his rights, and Bowler reviewed those with him again Monday.

    Also:

    Preliminary interviews with Tsarnaev indicate the two brothers fit the classification of self-radicalized jihadists, the source said. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, wounded and held in a Boston hospital, has said his brother -- who was killed early Friday -- wanted to defend Islam from attack, according to the source.


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    Most definitions require the acts of violence to be against random members of a certain population or group. One man shooting a president is generally deemed an assassin. Sniper, hit man, same type thing. In contrast, what inspires "terror" is the randomness of the act, and the disruption that follows. It's a calculated strategy. But really, you already know this.

    eta: posted before I saw Mo's mo-ifesto, which says it better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithanne View Post
    Religious fervour isn't limited to Islam. At my suburban Catholic school every morning we would sing the school song with the chorus "For God we live for God we'll die" - 5 times a week. If that isn't indoctrination I don't know what is.
    .

    Or how about this lovely Catholic prayer that lays a major guilt trip on you:

    Jesus hanging on the cross,
    Tell me was it I?
    There are great big tear drops Lord,
    Did I make you cry?
    I have been a naughty child,
    Naughty as can be.
    Now I am so sorry Lord,
    Won't you pardon me?


    Okay, back to the topic at hand.....
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    What strikes me is that people were VERY quick to call this terrorism once the bombers' names were released. We didn't know much about either brother and we certainly didn't know anything about their religious extremism at that point. If the Westboro (sp?) church blows up some abortion clinic because of their religious beliefs, is that considered terrorism? Or do they just get called "crazy" because they are white American religious zealots?

    The rate at which our government is chipping away at our civil liberties is alarming. Mohandas, if you didn't like the last article, you may have to gear up for this one: The ACLU on Obama and civil liberties
    The ACLU on Obama and core liberties - Salon.com



    As a lifelong Catholic and a graduate from Catholic school, I can honestly say I have never heard the prayer or song mentioned above. Not stating it to start an argument, it's just surprising because the Catholic church is sort of like McDonalds in the sense that it is very uniform. It doesn't differ much from one Catholic Church to the next.
    Last edited by Bellatheball; April 23rd, 2013 at 01:21 AM.

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    I'm not trying to say what happened is or is not terrorism; any violent act should be considered terrorism, there should be no distinction, "oh he shot 5 people but he didn't mean to incite fear in them over such and such..." uh no... It is so very obvious that the older brother had issues with his life, he appeared like he was adjusting but he wasn't; he felt he did not belong here or anywhere else and he found an idea to cling to. Muslim extremists are today what the whole satanic scare was of the 80's and the scary goth thing of the 90's. I feel that this is a story about someone that was mentally/emotionally stunted, thrust into new surroundings and he just did not find his place. I highly doubt he was easy prey to some extremist group that sought him out, I think he wanted to created a place for himself and that was the direction he took.
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    Taken by a pedestrian, great photos spanning the shoot out -

    OnHand — On Hand Pictures of Tsarneav Brothers

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    Some proof that these brothers had no real help or grand plan -

    The 11 Most Mystifying Things the Tsarnaev Brothers Did | Mother Jones

    The 11 Most Mystifying Things the Tsarnaev Brothers Did


    Dzhokhar and Tamerlan's motive—or motives—is still unclear. But that's not the only unknown. Many of the Tsarnaevs' actions last week seem baffling in retrospect. Here are some of the most confounding things they did:

    1. Wear a backwards hat and no sunglasses. Unlike his older brother, Dzhokhar made little effort to prevent cameras from capturing his face, making him easier to identify when the FBI released security camera photos on Thursday. Indeed, classmates at University of Massachusetts–Dartmouth did see him in the photos, but dismissed the similarity because it seemed so far-fetched.
    2. Not react to the explosions. For three days, investigators pored over all available photos and surveillance videos of the blast area searching for abnormal reactions. The complaint filed in federal court on Monday specifically cites Dzhokhar's reaction to the first explosion as a giveaway; per the complaint, he glanced in the direction of the first blast only briefly.
    3. Leave the car in the shop. The Wall Street Journal reported that Dzhokhar stopped by an auto-body shop in Watertown on Tuesday to pick up the Mercedes he'd brought in for repairs.
    4. Stay in Boston. The second bomb exploded at 2:49 p.m. last Monday. Dzhokhar and Tamerlan carjacked a Mercedes at 10:39 p.m.* on Thursday. What did they do in the interim three days? Go to the gym, check in on their busted car, and, in Dzhokhar's case, go to a party on the UMass–Dartmouth campus. During the three-day window in which their involvement was unknown, they made no attempt to flee.
    5. Kill an MIT police officer. Why did the brothers shoot 26-year-old Sean Collier? The murder at 10:30 p.m. on Thursday set in motion the events that would ultimately lead to their capture.
    6. Run out of cash. When Dzhokhar carjacked a Mercedes on Thursday night, he and his brother had one thing in mind: Get cash, and fast. They emptied $800 from an ATM using their victim's PIN number, before they reached the account limit. Holding up a stranger for money suggests a woeful lack of planning on their part (they hadn't budgeted) that helped alert them to the authorities.
    7. Not understand how ATMs work. After reaching the daily withdrawal limit at one ATM, the Tsarnaevs, apparently not realizing that the machines are part of an interconnected system, decided to try their luck at two different machines. The quest to find a working ATM was how they ended up, coincidentally, at a 7/11 in Cambridge around the same time it was the scene of an armed robbery, and were spotted on the store security camera.
    8. Confess to the hostage. According to the complaint, when Dzhokhar got into the Mercedes, he immediately told the driver, "Did you hear about the Boston explosion? I did that." That meant their cover would be immediately blown if the driver escaped. Which brings us to…
    9. Stop for snacks. The Los Angeles Times reported that the hostage escaped after the brothers stopped at a gas station on Memorial Drive to buy snacks.
    10. Keep the hostage's phone. The Tsarnaevs continued on without their hostage—but they did have his phone, which allowed police to track their location via GPS.
    11. Bring a BB gun. The weapons used by the two suspects, according to police: a pressure-cooker bomb, seven IEDs, an M4 carbine, two handguns, and a BB gun. Why a BB gun?

    *Correction: This piece initially confused the timing of the bombing and carjackings.
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  14. #614
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    So he admits they were motivated by religion? Surprise surprise! I have a feeling they weren't the only members of their family who knew about their plot too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I'm kind of aghast that a guy as intelligent as Glenn Greenwald wrote that article.

    Loughner, Lanza, Holmes, Harris and Klebold -- all of their crimes were characterized by mentally unhinged shooters - and their descent into mentally deranged violence was seen by a lot of people. Tsarnaev's not so much. In Dzhokhar's case, he was universally described as normal and likable. People never saw it coming

    Loughner, Lanza, Holmes, Harris and Klebold -- in three of these events, the people killed themselves at the scene (Lanza, Klebold, Harris). Two of the other people never even bothered to leave the scene (Holmes, Loughner). In the Tsarnaev's case, they almost seamlessly blended back into the crowds. And were on the lam for at least a couple of days. But they were tripped up by pervasive video technology.

    Loughner, Lanza, Holmes, Harris and Klebold -- none of their crimes appeared to be striking out in the name of an ideology, nor were they affiliated with a group that advocated violence. Tamaran Tsarnaeve did start to embrace militant islam in 2009. He was flagged by Russia as possible associating with extremist groups. He posted terrorist videos to his Youtube account.

    Loughner, Lanza, Holmes, Harris and Klebold --the effect of their atrocities was not to shut down an entire town and have people fearing of where they would strike next. The Tsarnaev's had Boston paralyzed for almost a week. That is almost the definition of terrorist intent.

    Dzhokhar is entitled to a legal presumption of innocence until proven guilty. But it is laughable to say it in any other context.
    agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    I do not yet know what the real motivation was, and will not pretend to. I know they were muslim, and that one may have been a radical.

    Other than that, I know bupkes about what actually motivated them. It may have been political, it may have been religious. Or it may have been a Leopold & Loeb type deal where two nutjobs decided to kill just for the thrill. I'm waiting for some actual information.

    There's been a ridiculous amount of incorrect info out there on this case so far. I keep that in mind.
    They may both have been radical.
    I know people want to know why these boys did this but the truth is that they DID this. I know that I think differently than many (MANY) of you here in that I will say that I don't care WHY they did it, I care THAT they did it. I think the punishment should be swift and final. Just get it over with. I get tired of reliving this shit for YEARS so that we can spend millions of tax dollars psychoanalyzing these motherfuckers on the taxpayers dime. Watching a program this weekend (Dates From Hell - on ID), I realized that come August 2013, we have to have a trial for the fucker who shot up the theater and killed 12 in Aurora. I hate it. I hate that the families of those 12 people have to be fair to the one fucker who killed (and obviously was unfair to them) their loved one. I'm not so much about fairness, I'm about justice.
    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    that's precisely the point, which people seem to be missing, whether purposefully or accidentally, i don't know. we don't know yet if it's terrorism. and yet everyone - including the president - has jumped on the terrorism bandwagon based solely on the fact that these 2 guys were muslim.
    if you go to the link, greenwald has since updated it and added another part, the end of which concludes:
    I'd have to say it isn't just based on them being Muslim - it's based on them carrying their backpacks filled with pressure cookers/ball bearings/nails, etc to a public place filled with thousands of people and doing so with malice in their hearts and destruction on their minds. And (speaking solely for myself), the looks on white hat's face while he placed those bombs, while those bombs went off and as he walked away satisfied with the destruction he had brought to those innocent people.
    Quote Originally Posted by ManxMouse View Post
    well y'all forgot about the Chechnya/Dagestan connection, and that the older dude just spent 6 months there last year and has been described as increasingly committed to Islam to the point of extremism. Come on...if he was just an ordinary Muslim dude that had no connection to an insurgent area, I'd agree with y'all that his religion is being overplayed.
    It doesn't happen often but, I agree with Manx...
    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    It's a terrorist act. Blowing up two bombs in a coordinated fashion in a public square and indiscriminately mutilating and killing scores of people and paralyzing a city with fear for 5 days is the essence of a terrorist act.
    It seems pretty simplistic to me as well...
    Quote Originally Posted by DeChayz View Post
    From msn:
    so... terrorists, yes?
    Quote Originally Posted by ManxMouse View Post
    God, terrorism doesn't require that you be part of, or follow, an organized group. It's about ideology. McVeigh was a terrorist and the Feds gave him the needle, doesn't always have to be about Islam...so stop with the straw man arguments. If a mass shooting involves some political ideology (not mental illness) it's terrorism too. Really not that complex.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellatheball View Post
    What strikes me is that people were VERY quick to call this terrorism once the bombers' names were released. We didn't know much about either brother and we certainly didn't know anything about their religious extremism at that point. If the Westboro (sp?) church blows up some abortion clinic because of their religious beliefs, is that considered terrorism? Or do they just get called "crazy" because they are white American religious zealots?

    The rate at which our government is chipping away at our civil liberties is alarming. Mohandas, if you didn't like the last article, you may have to gear up for this one: The ACLU on Obama and civil liberties
    The ACLU on Obama and core liberties - Salon.com



    As a lifelong Catholic and a graduate from Catholic school, I can honestly say I have never heard the prayer or song mentioned above. Not stating it to start an argument, it's just surprising because the Catholic church is sort of like McDonalds in the sense that it is very uniform. It doesn't differ much from one Catholic Church to the next.
    I would have to say that in this day and age and with the whole world being internet detectives, once the names are released, it's merely a matter of MOMENTS before everything is known about people. I don't base my belief that these guys are terrosists on their names... I base it on their actions.
    And, yes I do consider those westboro assholes to be terrorists...
    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    Some proof that these brothers had no real help or grand plan -

    The 11 Most Mystifying Things the Tsarnaev Brothers Did | Mother Jones

    The 11 Most Mystifying Things the Tsarnaev Brothers Did




    Dzhokhar and Tamerlan's motive—or motives—is still unclear. But that's not the only unknown. Many of the Tsarnaevs' actions last week seem baffling in retrospect. Here are some of the most confounding things they did:

    1. Wear a backwards hat and no sunglasses. Unlike his older brother, Dzhokhar made little effort to prevent cameras from capturing his face, making him easier to identify when the FBI released security camera photos on Thursday. Indeed, classmates at University of Massachusetts–Dartmouth did see him in the photos, but dismissed the similarity because it seemed so far-fetched. Seriously, the guy didn't give a shit about being identified, he seemed proud of what he'd done.
    2. Not react to the explosions. For three days, investigators pored over all available photos and surveillance videos of the blast area searching for abnormal reactions. The complaint filed in federal court on Monday specifically cites Dzhokhar's reaction to the first explosion as a giveaway; per the complaint, he glanced in the direction of the first blast only briefly.
    3. Leave the car in the shop. The Wall Street Journal reported that Dzhokhar stopped by an auto-body shop in Watertown on Tuesday to pick up the Mercedes he'd brought in for repairs.
    4. Stay in Boston. The second bomb exploded at 2:49 p.m. last Monday. Dzhokhar and Tamerlan carjacked a Mercedes at 10:39 p.m.* on Thursday. What did they do in the interim three days? Go to the gym, check in on their busted car, and, in Dzhokhar's case, go to a party on the UMass–Dartmouth campus. During the three-day window in which their involvement was unknown, they made no attempt to flee. I DO admit to being curious as to what they were doing those 3 days.
    5. Kill an MIT police officer. Why did the brothers shoot 26-year-old Sean Collier? The murder at 10:30 p.m. on Thursday set in motion the events that would ultimately lead to their capture.
    6. Run out of cash. When Dzhokhar carjacked a Mercedes on Thursday night, he and his brother had one thing in mind: Get cash, and fast. They emptied $800 from an ATM using their victim's PIN number, before they reached the account limit. Holding up a stranger for money suggests a woeful lack of planning on their part (they hadn't budgeted) that helped alert them to the authorities.
    7. Not understand how ATMs work. After reaching the daily withdrawal limit at one ATM, the Tsarnaevs, apparently not realizing that the machines are part of an interconnected system, decided to try their luck at two different machines. The quest to find a working ATM was how they ended up, coincidentally, at a 7/11 in Cambridge around the same time it was the scene of an armed robbery, and were spotted on the store security camera.
    8. Confess to the hostage. According to the complaint, when Dzhokhar got into the Mercedes, he immediately told the driver, "Did you hear about the Boston explosion? I did that." That meant their cover would be immediately blown if the driver escaped. Which brings us to… seems like he did that to incited more fear, to brag and to get his hostage to cooperate.
    9. Stop for snacks. The Los Angeles Times reported that the hostage escaped after the brothers stopped at a gas station on Memorial Drive to buy snacks.
    10. Keep the hostage's phone. The Tsarnaevs continued on without their hostage—but they did have his phone, which allowed police to track their location via GPS.
    11. Bring a BB gun. The weapons used by the two suspects, according to police: a pressure-cooker bomb, seven IEDs, an M4 carbine, two handguns, and a BB gun. Why a BB gun?

    *Correction: This piece initially confused the timing of the bombing and carjackings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarzy View Post
    So he admits they were motivated by religion? Surprise surprise! I have a feeling they weren't the only members of their family who knew about their plot too.
    I'm not willing to condemn their family for their crimes. The family could very well be innocent.... and rest assured, their life is already a living hell and will only get worse for quite some time.
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