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Thread: Connecticut school shooting: Reports say more than dozen dead

  1. #361
    Elite Member greysfang's Avatar
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    Vouch.
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    Elite Member Mr. Authority's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Oh yeah, thanks for making it clear for the skimmers. Mr A would never....
    I would never indeed.

    Adding to the debate about gun control, what do you guys think about gun buyback programs? I know they held a few down in Detroit and they ended up with everything from Glocks to Hunting Rifles. Do you all think giving money in exchange for guns would work to prevent violent gun crime, or do you all think it's a moot point?

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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    i don't think they work. if i'm not mistaken, these programmes usually include an amnesty clause - people hand in the guns, no questions asked, and i think in most cases it also means that any forensic evidence that could be gathered from the weapons handed in is excluded as well.
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    Elite Member faithanne's Avatar
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    I dunno, we had one down here after the Port Arthur massacre, it cost a fair chunk of taxpayer money but most people supported it and considered it money well spent.
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  5. #365
    Gold Member laynes's Avatar
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    Sporting goods chain suspends sale of certain semi-automatic after shooting - CNN.com

    Sporting goods chain suspends sale of certain semi-automatic after shooting

    By Susan Candiotti, CNN
    updated 10:43 AM EST, Tue December 18, 2012

    Pallbearers carry out James Mattioli's casket at St. Rose of Lima Roman Catholic Church after a funeral Mass on Tuesday, December 18, in Newtown, Connecticut. James, 6, was one of the 26 victims in the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown. As more funerals are scheduled this week, investigators in Connecticut work to piece together what happened in the massacre.




    STORY HIGHLIGHTS

    • It is unclear how long the suspension will last
    • Firearms were not sold to Adam Lanza, the store says



    (CNN) -- Dick's Sporting Goods, one of the largest sporting goods retailers in the world, says it has removed all guns from its store nearest to Newtown, Connecticut, and is suspending the sale of certain kinds of semi-automatic rifles from its chains nationwide.The move was made out of respect for the victims and families of last week's Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting "during this time of national mourning," the store said in a statement Tuesday morning."We continue to extend our deepest sympathies to those affected by this terrible tragedy," the statement said.It was unclear how long the store will keep the suspension in place for the guns, known as 'modern sporting rifles.'
    Comfort dogs bring joy to Newtown


    Victim's mom: 'I have a hole in my heart'


    Funerals for Newtown victims begin

    It's also not known whether this is the first time the store has taken such a step after a shooting that made national headlines.After Newtown, the NRA goes silentA search of Dick's Sporting Goods website early Tuesday morning showed a blank page for "modern sporting rifles."The move comes after reports that investigators were trying to determine whether the gunman in the Newtown shooting, Adam Lanza, tried to buy a gun from a Dick's Sporting Goods store in the city of Danbury, about 12 miles away."At this time, reports that the suspect visited one of our stores last week have not been confirmed by law enforcement," the sporting goods store said in a statement. "Based on our records, we can confirm that no firearms were sold to the suspect identified in this case."








  6. #366
    Elite Member Sleuth's Avatar
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    I am really happy for gun control in Australia but I'll admit that after gun control was passed in Australia .. my father still has my Great great Grandfathers extremely small vintage gun which was given to my great great grandfather as a small boy to protect himself on his journey to Australia from Scotland. My dad didn't want to take the risk that gun would be seized since it is a part of our family history. To this day it remains hidden in the roof and we do not own any bullets. If my home was being invaded I'm more likely to go rambo with my hockey stick.

    I realise that I'm being hypocritical with my non compliance to gun law but gun control in Australia has been fairly successful. Sure the hardcore criminals still have guns and there is a blackmarket but you have to be pretty fricken keen to try to access it. The whole point is taking away the easy access. The average joe does not need a gun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Authority View Post
    Totally agree. I'm tired of people posting on my FB talking about "if the teachers had guns, if we had more guns, blah blah blah..." Yeah untrained teachers with pistols firing into a school of kids during a madman's rampage, that'll stop mass shootings. -_- It's right up there with "The victim's parents who say their prayers about this incident should STFU! (a stupid
    atheist FB friend I unfriended" and "Why should I care about dead white children, I'm black. (another idiot FB friend I had before I cussed their ass out before I deleted them). I wish people would stop piggy-backing this tragedy to spew political drivel and sociological bullshit without caring about what's most important: the victims!
    Sorry you had to deal with those douches. One of the children killed was black. One was asian, and one of the teachers was Hispanic. It wasn't just white people that died. I'm glad you cussed their asses out, i would have as well. The lack of compassion in some is stunning.

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    Elite Member JazzyGirl's Avatar
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    FUCK EVERYONE and the fudking "It's my right to have any gun I want" come here - the wake of the 27yo teacher is being held about 5 blocks from my house...come here and talk to on fucking person about gun control and then go fuck yoursevles.

    sorry a bit angry today - just a rant.
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    Elite Member greysfang's Avatar
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    I don't need to since I live minutes from Columbine and Aurora.
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    FUCK YOU AND GIVE ME MY GODDAMN VENTI TWO PUMP LIGHT WHIP MOCHA YOU COCKSUCKING WHORE BEFORE I PUNCH YOU IN THE MOUTH. I just get unpleasant in my car. - Deej

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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    I found this piece interesting:



    Andrew Solomon: There’s no meaning to be found in Sandy Hook

    Andrew Solomon, whose new book covers autism, Columbine and more, says looking for meaning in Newtown is hopeless



    “It’s weird to feel as though you’re very much wanted because of something so ghastly and unspeakable,” Andrew Solomon says when he answers the phone on Monday evening.

    But Solomon’s brilliant “Far From the Tree: Parents, Children and the Search for Identity” — a staple on year-end best book lists — has been about the only book on my mind since Friday’s horrific massacre in Newtown, Conn.

    The great genius of Solomon’s book comes in its empathy for the parents and children who find themselves in situations they never imagined. There’s a chapter on children with autism and Asperger’s. And in another, he writes about getting to know the parents of one of the Columbine shooters, Dylan Klebold, as he sought to understand how two loving parents could end up, unknowingly, raising a killer.

    It’s the unknowability that you end up respecting — after all, think of the secrets you keep that might shock someone close to you. And there’s lots of unknowability in Newtown. We still don’t have a motive for why Adam Lanza did what he did. We don’t really understand his medical condition, his relationship with his mother, what help he might or might not have received. We don’t know why he targeted that school.

    But if anyone seemed to have the wisdom to help us get our heads around this, it’s Solomon. We talked about what Columbine can — and cannot — teach us about Sandy Hook, about Adam and Nancy Lanza, about how we all find forgiveness and the strength to move on. Solomon had a big caution, however: We just might never know. And we just might have to live with that horror.

    In “Far From the Tree,” you spent years with families of autistic kids, with kids who grew up to do unspeakable things. And it’s a book you come away from with such deep empathy for how hard these very different conditions can be. That understanding, that empathy — did the time you spent working on the book teach you anything that might help us get our heads around how to think about Newtown?

    There’s an optimistic belief in circulation that somehow you can derive, from a knowledge of how other massacres have taken place, some kind of real wisdom about this one. I just don’t think you can. People are longing for transparency that I think isn’t there.

    We’re desperate to figure out why.

    Everybody would like to find the answer to the question why. “Why” is incredibly urgent because people always think that if you find out the answer, then you can ensure it won’t happen again. If the reason the plane crashed is because there was a flaw in the second rear propeller, then they can check all the second rear propellers. These episodes are not subject to that variety of pinpointing. Oh, I see, the problem is X. If we only fix X, we’ll never have this problem again.

    The other problem, I think, is in the reporting — and the thing where I really do feel informed on my experiences, especially with the Klebolds — is this was a murder/suicide. The murder is what gets most of the media attention. If this guy had just killed himself, it would be a shame, and none of us would be any the wiser of it.

    So a different way to understand this would be to think first about the suicide, and then about the way in which it happened?

    Yes, I think the initial impulse is one of self-hatred, and it’s characteristic of adolescents to express their own self-hatred by doing damage to others. By being mean to their parents. By being disagreeable with their friends. By driving snowmobiles drunk even though they know they could kill someone else or themselves. Careless, arrogant, ungenerous — that is characteristic in inappropriate adolescents.

    This, obviously, takes this phenomenon to an entirely different level, to an insane level, and to a level that is hopefully not to recur. But the basic thing is that this level is really not so alien as people seem to think. It begins in self-hatred and despair, I think, rather than beginning in aggression. The aggression toward others, it seems to me, is secondary to the aggression to himself. I’m doing a lot of leaps and hypothesizing on the basis of the incredibly thin evidence we have so far.

    The other thing I kept thinking is there are two narratives in these kinds of crimes. For want of a better shorthand, I’ll say there’s the Loughner [the Tucson shooter in the Gabrielle Giffords attack] narrative and the Klebold narrative. The Loughner narrative is: Here was someone who absolutely everyone who came into contact with him knew there was something wrong, and everyone said he’s a total creep. Someone in his class in college said he’s the kind of person who one day could come in and blow up the school. Everyone could see that, but no one knew what to do about it, so nobody did anything about it.

    The Klebold narrative is: Here’s someone who keeps his inner life incredibly secret and it’s really not visible to people with whom he interacts. And because it’s not visible, it’s not treated. It’s not resolved. It’s not dealt with. From what’s being reported, this guy was somewhere in between — but closer to Jared Loughner. But I know from my experience with Columbine, in the first month, and even after that, after the thing took place, there were people who had barely known Dylan and Eric who were saying stuff that wasn’t really true because they were in love with the media or it satisfied some anxiety within them. I don’t know what their motivations were. An awful lot of misinformation was in circulation. It sounds like this was someone who was quite evidently disturbed and no one was doing much about it. I think how disturbed he really was, and how much was really being done, will take us a long time to find out.

    The quote that has stayed with me came from the advisor of his school tech club. He said something to the reporter like, “You haven’t found a friend of his yet, have you? And you won’t.” There are some people who remember Lanza carrying a briefcase to class. But there have also been a lot of classmates who report barely remembering him. He was too shy for a yearbook photo. In some ways, it’s like no one saw him at all.

    What’s hard to know is what his emotional relationship to that situation was. Many of the people I’ve written about who have autism or Asperger’s, some of them really find it miserable that no one wants to play with them and be their friend. There are many others who are actually not really interested in forming friendships in the way we mostly think of as the normal thing to want to do. He clearly was an angry, unhappy person — this is not the behavior of a sweet, fun-loving fellow. But did he want to have friends? I don’t know if he wanted to have the things you or I might want to have. I don’t know that he didn’t want them either. I’ve just dealt with enough Aspies to know that there are plenty who would really rather spend their time with machines.

    There has been a rush to blame autism or Asperger’s for what happened …

    I think it’s incredibly damaging. People with Asperger’s are already dealing with a lot of social prejudice out there; the last thing they need is more of it being foisted on them in this way. But I think it is very difficult to get around it – there’s a world of people who are very ready to blame. It’s always comforting to people to have a diagnosis. His problem is that he had this thing. It’s called Asperger’s, and if you don’t have it then you’re OK. He had this issue and this is what the issue was. Most people with Asperger’s are not going to do anything like this, and I think it’s very dangerous to have a public perception that they are or that they might. I worry about that a lot. It’s a troubling direction for this to go.

    You spent so much time with parents for your book. How are you thinking about Nancy Lanza? She’s been demonized and in some ways forgotten as well — someone donated 26 Christmas trees to the town for the victims, but not one for her, victim 27. She’s certainly responsible for keeping those guns in the house. But how should she be judged?

    I think “demonized” is a very well-chosen word. She’s dead, so she can’t come out with her own defense. She quite possibly was a troubled person; I don’t know what her issues and problems were. But I think the idea — which is implied in all this — that she did things to cause her son to become someone who would do this, well, there’s no basis in reality for that so far. Perhaps further information will come to the surface. Perhaps she made him memorize “Mein Kampf” as a child and trained him with assault weapons for this very purpose.

    But my suspicion, given that she was actually a victim, is that she didn’t expect him to do anything like this. To do this blaming, insinuating it’s all her fault thing, is very troubling and very groundless.

    The only thing from what I know so far – if you have a child who has a condition, one of the characteristics of which is impulsivity, you remove the tools with which that impulsivity can be exercised in such a damaging way. There’s a clear lack of judgment on her part in having a child whom others have seen as troubled and having all that ammunition lying around the house. But the idea that she caused it – I think it’s one of those things people like to say because it makes them feel as though they are safe from it. They wouldn’t do whatever she did wrong. But I think it’s an artificial comfort.

    Where do we find real comfort, in the midst of all this anger and sadness and rage?

    I think in general it takes time. I thought that statement by Robbie Parker, the father of one of the people who was killed, which he made within 24 hours, and said his heart goes out to the family of the shooter, was quite remarkable.

    My take on being forgiving in a situation like this is not that people should be forgiving because it’s morally right — though I think there are moral arguments to be made for forgiveness. But I saw at Columbine that the people who said — not that they could forgive the actual murders — but the people who weren’t busy trying to blame everyone else and bring lawsuits were the ones who managed a degree of healing. It’s not as though the wounds go away. But they were able to function even in the wake of their terrible and devastating losses better than the people who are in it for the fight. It’s not a question of whether it’s right or wrong to fight, or whether there should be a fight or shouldn’t be a fight. It’s that the people who are in it for the fight tend to get eaten alive by the fight.

    Are there other big lessons you learned at Columbine that might be applicable here?

    For me, the big lesson is just that I thought the more I got to know, the more I would understand. And I now know really quite a lot about Columbine and I know the immediate family of one of the perpetrators extremely well. The result of all of that knowledge is I have less understanding of what happened than I did before.

    There’s a tendency when faced with something of this drama and horror to try to discover a meaning of some kind in it — to try and parse it in some productive way. My experience is that there’s nothing to be achieved for that. I feel like all of the TV cameras are there saying, Here’s someone else saying why this is happening. Someone gets up and says it’s really all to do with video games. Then someone else gets up and does “if we had better mental health services.” I happen to agree with all these problems. I think violent video games have a negative impact on the people who play them; there seem to be many studies which reveal that. I think if we had mental health screening of an adequate nature in the school system, we could probably catch people before they escalate to levels of psychosis and dysfunction.

    But I don’t think that you can just make up a laundry list and say, “If we only took care of these 10 things, it would go away.” I think the capacity for this horror is out there. What one eventually has to come terms with is the fact that it’s unknowable.

    Andrew Solomon: There’s no meaning to be found in Sandy Hook - Salon.com
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  11. #371
    Gold Member laynes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysfang View Post
    Now that makes sense. No one needs to be able to fire 50 rounds without changing.


    Well, maybe if they're being attacked by a herd of Walkers, or China invades us, but that's about it.
    Agreed on this. If you need an assault rifle or 30 - 50 rounds for self defense, you must be a real asshole.



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    Gold Member Jazzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithanne View Post
    I dunno, we had one down here after the Port Arthur massacre, it cost a fair chunk of taxpayer money but most people supported it and considered it money well spent.
    Not sure if any one is interested but here is a link to some info about the Gun Buy Back Scheme in Australia.

    http://www.anao.gov.au/uploads/documents/1997-98_Audit_Report_25.pdf


    Around page 7 you can see the cost.
    Last edited by Jazzy; December 18th, 2012 at 11:23 PM. Reason: Added info
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    Elite Member Waterslide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    i don't think they work. if i'm not mistaken, these programmes usually include an amnesty clause - people hand in the guns, no questions asked, and i think in most cases it also means that any forensic evidence that could be gathered from the weapons handed in is excluded as well.
    I agree, especially the part about the amnesty clause concerning past crimes. When they did that where I lived, there was a general mood among a lot of people that they were getting away with something by taking advantage of the amnesty clause. Then again, I think there were stories about people stealing other people's guns to get...shoes, I think it was? Maybe it was cash. I don't remember. Whatever it was, I don't think anyone felt all that much safer. If it changed one persons life, and the gun-shoe trade stopped someone from banging, then I guess it's positive in that respect, but in general, I don't think these buybacks do all that much. And guns certainly found their way back to the streets after that.


    Quote Originally Posted by JazzyGirl View Post
    FUCK EVERYONE and the fudking "It's my right to have any gun I want" come here - the wake of the 27yo teacher is being held about 5 blocks from my house...come here and talk to on fucking person about gun control and then go fuck yoursevles.

    sorry a bit angry today - just a rant.
    I see you are upset, and rightfully so, and I'm genuinely sorry that you're upset, but I'm not sure I understand the rest of your post.


    Witchcurlgirl, thank you for the article. I do think it's really hard for people when they don't have the answers, but, as the article points out, the truth is we may never know why this happened, or why any of the other tragedies happened. I'm going to read the article over again tomorrow when I'm not half asleep...
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    Elite Member MmeVertigina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysfang View Post
    So were the materials that Terry Nichols and Timothy McVeigh purchased. Still are actually. The simple fact of the matter is, if people want to kill masses of people, a way will be found. Do guns make that easier? Probably, but eliminating guns will not stop it. There is no reason in hell a citizen needs to have access to assault rifles. We aren't allowed to own a tank, so there's no reason to own assault rifles either, but to try to eliminate guns entirely is just ridiculous. Either way, mass killings will still happen and with the same frequency.
    We have made it more difficult to purchase (and to transport) the materials needed to make bombs or remote explosive devices. There is more sophisticated tracking now. But also, if bombs were legal and sold at the store there would be many more bombings.

    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I'm not sure it's either practical or desirable to eliminate guns. However, I think we, as a country, are fixated on what it means to "infringe" people's rights. I don't think keeping guns out of the hands of unstable people is infringement. Or that saying you can't own more than two or so low-velocity, low capacity guns is infringement. However, a lot of gun rights people think it is.
    This ^

    Quote Originally Posted by SunShine23 View Post
    do you really think someone planning a murder is going to stop his plans because he cant get a gun legally? it's not that hard to get a gun off the street so how exactly will gun laws help when you can skirt the laws?
    Yes, most illegally possessed guns start out as legally possessed guns. The problem is that we are allowing the manufacture of guns that are made for the sole purpose of firing multiple rounds in a matter of seconds, and are available to any citizen that passes the "test". I can't fathom why they are even being maufactured for a non military purpose, some of these-- bought by private citizens-- are stolen and resold illegally. There has to be a compromise in there somewhere, with all of the paranoia wiped away (if Big Brother wants you, he can get you even if you have 10 guns) I am sure we can come up with something. Having it enforced will be another thing altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Authority View Post

    Adding to the debate about gun control, what do you guys think about gun buyback programs? I know they held a few down in Detroit and they ended up with everything from Glocks to Hunting Rifles. Do you all think giving money in exchange for guns would work to prevent violent gun crime, or do you all think it's a moot point?
    They did this in Oakland last weekend, and in SF too I believe, I think most of the guns we got back were older guns, antiques, broken, etc.
    Last edited by MmeVertigina; December 19th, 2012 at 12:46 AM.
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    Elite Member JazzyGirl's Avatar
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    I posted briefly last night and just wanted to clarify. THe post was not directed at anyone here. the posts on gun control here are intelligent, thoughtful and have supporting data. I also am very aware that this is an international community and many have been affected by tragic events close to them. This one happens to be close to me.

    I had been watching a few interviews about gun control and seriously wondered how these people were brought up. There was a casualness in speaking about the rght to own multi round capacity assault weapons,and i have been hearing shit like "we need more guns" and "teachers need guns" (which I have since learned is an actuality Texas. Wrapping my brain around that one). I blew up. I needed to put it down somewhere..too many idiots on facebook. Anyway - thanks for letting me vent I needed to get that anger out - this was a safe place to do it.

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